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451 points imartin2k | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.628s | source
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bsenftner ◴[] No.44479706[source]
It's like talking into a void. The issue with AI is that it is too subtle, too easy to get acceptable junk answers and too subtle for the majority to realize we've made a universal crib sheet, software developers included, perhaps one of the worst populations due to their extremely weak communications as a community. To be repeatedly successful with AI, one has to exert mental effort to prompt AI effectively, but pretty much nobody is willing to even consider that. Attempts to discuss the language aspects of using an LLM get ridiculed as 'prompt engineer is not engineering' and dismissed, while that is exactly what it is: prompt engineering using a new software language, natural language, that the industry refuses to take seriously, but is in fact an extremely technical programming language so subtle few to none of you realize it, nor the power that is embodied by it within LLMs. They are incredible, they are subtle, to the degree the majority think they are fraud.
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einrealist ◴[] No.44479916[source]
Isn't "Engineering" is based on predictability, on repeatability?

LLMs are not very predictable. And that's not just true for the output. Each change to the model impacts how it parses and computes the input. For someone claiming to be a "Prompt Engineer", this cannot work. There are so many variables that are simply unknown to the casual user: training methods, the training set, biases, ...

If I get the feeling I am creating good prompts for Gemini 2.5 Pro, the next version might render those prompts useless. And that might get even worse with dynamic, "self-improving" models.

So when we talk about "Vibe coding", aren't we just doing "Vibe prompting", too?

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oceanplexian ◴[] No.44479980[source]
> LLMs are not very predictable. And that's not just true for the output.

If you run an open source model from the same seed on the same hardware they are completely deterministic. It will spit out the same answer every time. So it’s not an issue with the technology and there’s nothing stopping you from writing repeatable prompts and promoting techniques.

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o11c ◴[] No.44480581[source]
By "unpredictability", we mean that AIs will return completely different results if a single word is changed to a close synonym, or an adverb or prepositional phrase is moved to a semantically identical location, etc. Very often this simple change will move you from "get the correct answer 90% of the time" (about the best that AIs can do) to "get the correct answer <10% of the time".

Whenever people talk about "prompt engineering", they're referring to randomly changing these kinds of things, in hopes of getting a query pattern where you get meaningful results 90% of the time.

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bsenftner ◴[] No.44480868[source]
What you're describing is specifically the subtle nature of LLMs I'm pointing at; that changing of a single word to a close synonym is meaningful. Why and how they are meaningful gets pushback from the developer community, they somehow do not see this as being a topic, a point of engineering proficiency. It is, but requires an understanding of how LLMs encode and retrieve data.

The reason changing one word in a prompt to a close synonym changes the reply is because it is the specific words used in a series that is how information is embedded and recovered by LLMs. The 'in a series' aspect is subtle and important. The same topic is in the LLM multiple times, with different levels of treatment from casual to academic. Each treatment from casual to formal uses different words, similar words, but different and that difference is very meaningful. That difference is how seriously the information is being handled. The use of one term versus another term causes a prompt to index into one treatment of the subject versus another. The more formal the terms used, meaning the synonyms used by experts of that area of knowledge, generate the more accurate replies. While the close synonyms generate replies from outsiders of that knowledge, those not using the same phrases as those with the most expertise, the phrases used by those perhaps trying to understand but do not yet?

It is not randomly changing things in one's prompts at all. It's understanding the knowledge space one is prompting within such that the prompts generate accurate replies. This requires knowing the knowledge space one prompts within, so one knows the correct formal terms that unlock accurate replies. Plus, knowing that area, one is in a better position to identify hallucination.

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1. handfuloflight ◴[] No.44480995[source]
Words are power, and specifically, specific words are power.
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2. bsenftner ◴[] No.44483216[source]
Yes! Why do people get so angry about it? "Oh, you're saying I'm hold it wrong?!" Well, actually, yes, If you speak Pascal to Ruby you get syntax errors, and this is the same basic idea. If you want to talk sports to an LLM and you use shit talking sports language, that's what you'll get back. Obvious, right? Same goes for anything formal, and why is that an insult to people to point that out?
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3. handfuloflight ◴[] No.44483523[source]
For a subset of these detractors, it's their investment and personal moat building into learning syntax which is now being threatened to be obsoleted by natural language programming. Now people with domain knowledge are able to become developers, whereas previously domain experts relied on syntax writers to translate their requirements into reality.

The syntax writers may say: "I do more than write syntax! I think in systems, logic, processes, limits, edge cases, etc."

The response to that is: you don't need syntax to do that, yet until now syntax was the barrier to technical expression.

So ironically, when they show anger it is a form of hypocrisy: they already know that knowing how to write specific words is power. They're just upset that the specific words that matter have changed.