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207 points lexandstuff | 8 comments | | HN request time: 3.728s | source | bottom
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VikRubenfeld ◴[] No.44477409[source]
Is a future where AI replaces most human labor rendered impossible by the following consideration:

-- In such a future, people will have minimal income (possibly some UBI) and therefore there will be few who can afford the products and services generated by AI

-- Therefore the AI generates greatly reduced wealth

-- Therefore there’s greatly reduced wealth to pay for the AI

-- …rendering such a future impossible

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zaptrem ◴[] No.44477457[source]
Alternatively:

-- In such a future, people will have minimal income (possibly some UBI) and therefore there will be few who can afford the products and services generated by AI

-- Corporate profits drop (or growth slows) and there is demand from the powers that be to increase taxation in order to increase the UBI.

-- People can afford the products and services.

Unfortunately, with no jobs the products and services could become exclusively entertainment-related.

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1. VikRubenfeld ◴[] No.44477579[source]
Let's say AI gets so good that it is better than people at most jobs. How can that economy work? If people aren't working, they aren't making money. If they don't have money, they can't pay for the goods and services produced by AI workers. So then there's no need for AI workers.

UBI can't fix it because a) it won't be enough to drive our whole economy, and b) it amounts to businesses paying customers to buy their products, which makes no sense.

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2. idiotsecant ◴[] No.44478027[source]
Why does there have to be a need for AI? Once an AI has the means the collect its own resources the opinions of humans regarding its market utility become somewhat less important.
3. kadushka ◴[] No.44478167[source]
So then there's no need for AI workers.

You got this backwards - there won’t be need for humans outside of the elite class. 0.1% or 0.01% of mankind will control all the resources. They will also control robots with guns.

Less than 100 years ago we had a guy who convinced a small group of Germans to seize power and try to exterminate or enslave vast majority of humans on Earth - just because he felt they were inferior. Imagine if he had superhuman AI at his disposal.

In the next 50 years we will have different factions within elites fighting for power, without any regard for wellbeing of lower class, who will probably be contained in fully automated ghettos. It could get really dark really fast.

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4. Kaibeezy ◴[] No.44478947[source]
This is ringing a bell. I need to re-read The Diamond Age… or maybe re-watch Elysium… or Soylent Green… or…
5. VikRubenfeld ◴[] No.44480659[source]
>> So then there's no need for AI workers.

> You got this backwards - there won’t be need for humans outside of the elite class. 0.1% or 0.01% of mankind will control all the resources.

Let me rephrase that from 'So then there's no need for AI workers.' to 'So then there's no money to pay for AI workers.'

The UBI approach creates a closed economic loop: Company A pays taxes → Government gives UBI to consumers → Consumers buy from Company A → Company A pays taxes... This is functionally identical to Company A directly paying people to buy Company A's products, which makes no economic sense.

It's like Ford paying his workers $50/day, but the only customers buying Ford cars are Ford workers spending their $50/day wages. Ford would go bankrupt - there's no external value creation, just money circulating in circles.

Where does the actual wealth come from in this system? Who are the net buyers that make the businesses profitable enough to sustain the UBI taxes?

UBI in an AI-dominated economy can't create a functioning economy - it's just an imaginary self-licking ice cream cone.

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6. hakfoo ◴[] No.44482305{3}[source]
The Ford model shown has been oversimplified to the point of absurdity by using only one industry. The real economy is about flows between multiple sectors. Who's buying bread? Do they have enough disposable income to buy packaged bread or just flour to bake at home? If there's a packaged bread industry, does it become robust enough to justify buying delivery trucks from Ford?

On the other hand, on a much broader scale, the planet itself is a closed economic loop. There's a finite amount of resources and we're all just cycling most of them around back and forth.

Arguably, a significant amount of "growth" has come from taking resources that formerly were not "on the books" and putting them on. The silver in the New World wasn't in (Western) ledgers until the 1500s, the oil under the Middle East was just goo until the late 1800s. The uranium ore in your backyard suddenly got a lot more interesting after 1940.

New value can come from inventing new and useful applications for existing resources or by finding new external inputs (maybe capturing some of that radiation the giant fusion sphere overhead is blasting in our direction).

7. ◴[] No.44482461{3}[source]
8. kadushka ◴[] No.44482790{3}[source]
There will still be a functioning economy - serving the elite class. There will be a million people total who control all the resources. These people will form a new society, will have their own government, their own laws, their own values, products, services, etc. Everybody else will be out of luck: at first they will be given "UBI", then they will be cordoned into special zones, basically concentration camps, and eventually exterminated, because the elite has no need for them. Why waste resources on billions of useless humans, widely seen by elites as inferior species? They will probably make a virus to wipe us out and see that as a reboot of human race.

Or the technological singularity happens before that, and either AI will kill us all, or humans will merge with AI.