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Local-first software (2019)

(www.inkandswitch.com)
869 points gasull | 18 comments | 05 Jul 25 14:45 UTC | HN request time: 1.557s | source | bottom
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DataDaoDe ◴[05 Jul 25 17:02 UTC] No.44474024[source]▶
Yes a thousand percent! I'm working on this too. I'm sick of everyone trying to come up with a use case to get all my data in everyone's cloud so I have to pay a subscription fee to just make things work. I'm working on a fitness tracking app right now that will use the sublime model - just buy it, get updates for X years, sync with all your devices and use it forever. If you want updates after X years buy the newest version again. If its good enough as is - and that's the goal - just keep using it forever.

This is the model I want from 90% of the software out there, just give me a reasonable price to buy it, make the product good, and don't marry it to the cloud so much that its unusable w/out it.

There are also a lot of added benefits to this model in general beyond the data privacy (most are mentioned in the article), but not all the problems are solved here. This is a big space that still needs a lot of tooling to make things really easy going but the tech to do it is there.

Finally, the best part (IMHO) about local-first software is it brings back a much healthier incentive structure - you're not monetizing via ads or tracking users or maxing "engagement" - you're just building a product and getting paid for how good it is. To me it feels like its software that actually serves the user.

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1. patmorgan23 ◴[05 Jul 25 22:03 UTC] No.44475944[source]▶
Obsidian the note taking app is a great model to follow as well. The client is completely free and they sell an optional syncing service. The notes are all on markdown files so the client is completely optional.
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2. crossroadsguy ◴[06 Jul 25 07:49 UTC] No.44478683[source]▶
This is the reason I have always refused to use Bear note taking app irrespective of how good and snappy that app is. Because they keep their notes in a SQLite db now and even though that file can be backed up and handled locally my notes are not easily accessible to me. I can't easily edit my notes in other editors (which I often like to do on my mac), I can't version controlled backup and sync those files the way I want outside of iCloud (which is what Bear uses).

What is sad is that they used to be local files first note app and then they moved to sqlite citing some sync and performance issues.

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3. agos ◴[06 Jul 25 08:32 UTC] No.44478892[source]▶
I didn’t know they did this change which means it’s time to think about migrating away from bear. Which is a pity because the software itself is rock solid
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4. canadiantim ◴[06 Jul 25 12:19 UTC] No.44480121[source]▶
Sqlite is still local first. Couldn’t they just also provide you with notes via obsidian-like file folder structure while using sqlite for in-app performance?
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5. crossroadsguy ◴[06 Jul 25 14:18 UTC] No.44481026{3}[source]▶
Yes, I feel the same. A rock solid app dismantled by just one developer choice. Still I won't diss the devs because it's their choice but "a text note" is the last thing I would want "locked" in a sqlite db and bear is a "plain text note taking app" really. So just sad.
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6. crossroadsguy ◴[06 Jul 25 14:21 UTC] No.44481048{3}[source]▶
That was exactly my thought. But no I guess they won't. Because they had good old plain text files but they changed to sqlite db and apparently the reason they gave is sync related challenges. Since it's not a FOSS app I don't know the challenges and I feel all other text based notes/editor apps that work on plain text files on disk must be doing something right/different. I don't know.

And as for sqlite being local first - it's not the same. It's the nature of the data a plain text note taking app deals with that neuters that very idea of those plain text notes by storing in a local sqlite db.

7. strken ◴[06 Jul 25 14:39 UTC] No.44481174{4}[source]▶
From memory the sqlite3 API is something like

    sqlite3 data.db 'select text from notes'
I use sqlite3 to load and query random CSVs all the time. It feels a bit weird to hear data described as "locked" within a SQLite DB, because it's one of the simplest non-text formats for me to read data from. It would surprise me of it took more than five minutes to set up a one-way cron job to dump your notes into plain text files.
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8. throw10920 ◴[06 Jul 25 16:04 UTC] No.44481885[source]▶
> What is sad is that they used to be local files first note app and then they moved to sqlite citing some sync and performance issues.

They're still a local-first note application. It's just slightly harder for you to edit your notes externally, and not even by that much - it's very easy to directly query (read and write) SQLite databases, and if you really cared you could have made a script to grab a note, export it to a temporary text file, allow you to edit it, then update the SQLite database.

> I can't version controlled backup and sync those files

You absolutely can - you can dump SQLite databases to text files that contain SQL queries that will restore the database that you can then backup and sync: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/75675/how-to-dump-the-da...

> then they moved to sqlite citing some sync and performance issues

Yes, that's because "plain text" files are bad for performance and harder to sync correctly. For people who (1) have over a hundred thousand notes they want to keep (like me) and (2) want maximum confidence that they're not going to lose years worth of work, that's incredibly important.

The devs made the right choice. You can always write scripts to interface with a SQLite database with an external editor. You can't take plain text files and magically make them as fast and durable as a database.

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9. nylonstrung ◴[06 Jul 25 16:15 UTC] No.44481988{4}[source]▶
Is SQLite really "locked in"?

It's possible most ubiquitous open source software ever (far more common than markdown) and your notes exist in fully readable text form inside it

Bear being proprietary is the real threat of lock in

10. crossroadsguy ◴[06 Jul 25 17:28 UTC] No.44482515{3}[source]▶
Goodness! Are you a bear dev by any chance or a dedicated member of its particularly toxic subreddit? Because the tone fits right in.

> It's just slightly harder for you to edit your notes externally

Yup, just slightly harder! Very slightly. A difference of 3.75 picoseconds. Couldn't agree more.

> it's very easy to directly query

Right!

> and if you really cared..have made a script

And designed a nuclear reactor while I was at it, isn't it?

> The devs made the right choice

Yessss!! Finally.

Ffs!!!

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11. crossroadsguy ◴[06 Jul 25 17:32 UTC] No.44482549{5}[source]▶
My god! Really? What is this subthread now - bear app fan version of discussions.apple.com?

This is just unbelievable! Fucking pitchforks are out literally!

I am dealing with plain text notes and you all want me to write sql queries and scripts to access those fucking text files?

Are you all (these few people who just jumped in the subthread) pulling some sort of prank of so?

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12. throw10920 ◴[06 Jul 25 17:39 UTC] No.44482605{4}[source]▶
This comment does not contribute to the discussion and badly breaks the HN guidelines. Please review them: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Also interesting to note that you couldn't actually muster a coherent response to any of my points and just had to make ad hominem attacks and emotional outbursts.

13. tyre ◴[06 Jul 25 17:43 UTC] No.44482641{4}[source]▶
> And designed a nuclear reactor while I was at it, isn't it?

Claude can one shot this.

14. fauigerzigerk ◴[06 Jul 25 18:10 UTC] No.44482805{3}[source]▶
>and if you really cared you could have made a script to grab a note, export it to a temporary text file, allow you to edit it, then update the SQLite database.

Bear devs advise against doing that: "Generally speaking, it is safe to access the database for reading only"

https://bear.app/faq/where-are-bears-notes-located/

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15. throw10920 ◴[06 Jul 25 22:53 UTC] No.44484872{4}[source]▶
Thank you for the correction! I was not aware of this.

It's still worth pointing out that this design decision is orthogonal to the decision to use SQLite, though. The Bear devs could have designed it such that you could write to the database directly, or they could have kept the text-file-based design, but still told the user that they can't modify the files directly (as one of my personal projects does). The assignment of blame to SQLite specifically is misguided.

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16. strken ◴[06 Jul 25 23:35 UTC] No.44485155{6}[source]▶
I don't even use Bear app, I'm just confused by the idea that anything's "locked" inside sqlite when I deliberately put data there for ease of use.

I don't want you to do anything. Use whatever you want! But if you love your tool except for the fact it uses an open database format instead of text files, then lucky you, there's a solution, and it takes all of five minutes.

17. swyx ◴[07 Jul 25 05:12 UTC] No.44486953[source]▶
the syncing is just really godawfully slow. so much so that after 2 years of use i have almost stopped taking notes.
18. fauigerzigerk ◴[07 Jul 25 07:10 UTC] No.44487512{5}[source]▶
You are right that storing notes as individual text files in the file system doesn't guarantee safe read-write access. But I don't agree that these design decisions are orthogonal.

How would you design a system that uses SQLite as primary storage for notes (rather than just as a search index or metadata store) while still letting people edit those notes in any text editor, sync via any cloud and make them accessible to any AI or other third party software that knows how to use a file system?

Exporting and re-importing every single time you want to edit a note is impractical for tech folks and impossible for regular users.

I can imagine a partial solution using FUSE, FileProvider and whatever the respective file system abstractions are on other platforms. But that would be a huge amount of work.