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    113 points jimhi | 14 comments | | HN request time: 1.442s | source | bottom
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    SoftTalker ◴[] No.44474976[source]
    What on earth is wrong with not paying taxes legally? What taxes does anyone pay other than those that they must pay?

    If the government wants a tax to be paid they need to make it simple and unconditional. If there are loopholes or ways to legally avoid it, they will be discovered and people will take advantage of them.

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    1. webdevver ◴[] No.44475075[source]
    i think the latest term is 'tax optimisation'...

    you could make an argument that in order to optimise your taxes, you have to be quite wealthy to begin with (hiring a tax guy, etc.) - otherwise you don't have any time left in the day to run your business.

    so in practice, the little guy winds up just paying the 'sticker price' so to speak, while the big guy has pros who can make their big profits even bigger.

    replies(5): >>44475171 #>>44475188 #>>44475269 #>>44475283 #>>44475416 #
    2. f4c39012 ◴[] No.44475171[source]
    If everyone had access to the same kind of tax advice that minimised taxes for the rich, I bet a bunch of loopholes would get closed pretty quickly. Some publicly available templates and simple to follow guides would encourage governments to act when they see a general shortfall in revenue. When new loopholes emerge, rinse & repeat. Maybe everyone would pay their fair share then
    replies(2): >>44475222 #>>44475230 #
    3. carlosjobim ◴[] No.44475188[source]
    You could make that argument, but it is incorrect. Creating a limited liability company is one of the few (the only?) things which is still allowed and accessible for any person to do, no matter if you're rich or poor, no matter your family name, no matter your political connections, no matter any visible or invisible handicaps you might have. In most places it costs very little to create an LLC or other similar kind of entity.

    If you're "a little guy" - as I would consider myself - there are usually zero open doors and zero opportunities in this world, except for starting your own company. And it is possible to optimize your taxes from the start when your business is small. Most governments and states in the world actively encourage this by giving tax relief to small businesses, and then other types of incentives. The price for "hiring a tax guy" depends very much on the scale of your business, in the beginning it's not a lot of money, if you even need him.

    For all this talk about "equality", this is the only thing that actually functions in our modern world.

    replies(1): >>44475763 #
    4. smallmancontrov ◴[] No.44475222[source]
    No, because most loopholes cost $$ to set up so they only break even above a certain income that few people have. You must be this rich to play.
    replies(1): >>44475263 #
    5. thatguy0900 ◴[] No.44475230[source]
    I'm not sure governments would act on a shortfall in revenue. Some governments seem to just consider money not real, just add a couple trillion to the debt and call it a day
    6. anthonypz ◴[] No.44475263{3}[source]
    I’m curious to know: what are some of the things that need to be set up? Specific bank accounts to route money around?
    replies(1): >>44475440 #
    7. phtrivier ◴[] No.44475269[source]
    I always wonder if there was an opportunity for a startup to "uberize" tax avoidance.

    The article is mostly about avoiding taxes on "having your startup acquired" - not everyone will be able to do that.

    But setting up funds and deduce everything you buy ? Creating shill companies ? Becoming a trustee for some random that badly wants to avoid their taxes ? Sounds like that can be automated ?

    Sure, it would be insanely immoral, and I hope the person who master tax avoidance get to loose access to everything payed by the tax payers, just doe thrill.

    Or maybe we should have voluntary taxation ; but, beyond a certain level, you really loose access. Don't want to pay ? Sure. You put off the fires yourself, you heal and tech your kids yourself, you build and drive on your own roads, fund your own research, don't access supermarkets that are full of FDA-vetted food, etc...

    In all seriousness, if budgets were voted by "real" people and not representatives, how many of things would survive ? Can you convince people about the usefulness of tax free 10M$ startup sale, where every cent your earn is taxed as some portion ?

    Anyway, let the tax avoidance experts be the richest of their graveyards.

    replies(1): >>44475830 #
    8. jt2190 ◴[] No.44475283[source]
    > in order to optimise your taxes, you have to be quite wealthy to begin with (hiring a tax guy, etc.)

    Another way of thinking about this is that the wealthy person is incentivized to invest their wealth directly into higher-risk, economy-boosting activities like starting businesses that (if successful) create jobs that then pay income taxes. Ideally tax revenue is generated from this incentive. The wealthy person could just buy gold bars and create no jobs that generate income tax, but they don't get as good a tax deal on that.

    9. pengaru ◴[] No.44475416[source]
    > i think the latest term is 'tax optimisation'...

    How does this differ from the long-standing term "tax avoidance"?

    It's the "tax evasion" flavor that gets you into legal trouble afaik.

    replies(1): >>44475606 #
    10. AlotOfReading ◴[] No.44475440{4}[source]
    An easy example: buy a house in Monaco, put €500k in a bank, and declare it your legal residence for tax purposes to avoid most taxes.
    replies(1): >>44475996 #
    11. Muromec ◴[] No.44475606[source]
    There is a spectrum where tax optimization is one side and tax fraud on the other. Depending on who you ask, some behaviors can be put on different points in it.
    12. ryandrake ◴[] No.44475763[source]
    > Most governments and states in the world actively encourage this by giving tax relief to small businesses, and then other types of incentives.

    At least in the USA, I don't think there is any need to "incentivize" going into business via the tax code. Most people who can afford to own a business already do, and many people who really can't afford it still try! "I'd love to start a business and try to make a bunch of money, but those darn taxes are stopping me!" - said no US entrepreneur ever. They're not doing it for these small tax incentives, but they are certainly taking advantage of them whenever they can.

    So it seems like we are simply incentivizing activity that's already going to happen and allowing people who were already going to do it anyway to have that activity be not subject to taxes.

    13. coredog64 ◴[] No.44475830[source]
    The IRS takes an extremely dim view of setting up a shell and deducting everything. You don’t have to take my word for it, you can ask Wesley Snipes if 28 months in the federal pokey was worth the illusory tax savings he managed.
    14. v5v3 ◴[] No.44475996{5}[source]
    Or get some one else to move...

    The UK billionaire Phil Green lived in UK, his wife moved to Monaco and everything was in her name. So he could run the companies in person and she would recieve the hundreds of millions in dividends.