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As a Labrador swam by me out to sea his owner said I hope he doesn't meet a seal

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117 points austinallegro | 2 comments | 04 Jul 25 07:40 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source
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SethMurphy ◴[04 Jul 25 09:16 UTC] No.44462753[source]▶
It always fascinated me that particular behaviors, like herding, can be so ingrained to a particular breed of dog. The dog is no longer in a setting where this is crucial to their survival, yet the urge exists. I do wonder for how many generations the behaviors would last, assuming the dominant genes were not surpressed. That is of course assuming genes are the factor that drives it. It's almost as if environment has little to do with the behavior in this case, other than having opportunity to exhibit the behavior.
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krisoft ◴[04 Jul 25 09:37 UTC] No.44462915[source]▶
Idk if the "herding behaviour" is a useful way to think of this. Imagine that we didn't speak the same language, you went for a swim in the ocean and I would go after you and dragged you back to shore while shouting (in my own language) "Oh my, that is so dangerous. Do you even know how many people drown like that? Stop this lunacy at once". Would you describe my behaviour as "herding"? Would you talk about generations, and dominant genes? Or would you just say "this person has some fear for my safety (well grounded or baseless) and seems to care enough about me to save me from the danger he perceives, while I can't convince him that it is fine because we don't speak the same language."
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kid64 ◴[04 Jul 25 09:58 UTC] No.44463049[source]▶
This analogy might work in a universe where dogs speak foreign languages in which they learn about concepts like danger, persuasion, and language itself. Sounds fun.
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1. krisoft ◴[04 Jul 25 11:15 UTC] No.44463482{3}[source]▶
> in which they learn about concepts like danger, persuasion, and language itself.

Dogs definitely know about the concept of "danger". Roaring fire, a raised stick, or loud noises. These are all things which doesn't cause immediate pain but they react to avoid them. It seems from the story Lenny includes in the things he want to avoid the ocean while Arthur doesn't. That sounds more like an individual difference than a genetic predisposition.

You don't need to speak a foreign language to have this concept.

I don't know what is your definition of "persuasion". If it involves the behaviour of standing in someone's way and bothering them until they turn back then we can agree that Lenny seems to have the concept despite not having a language.

We had an Old English Sheepdog called Bob who let kids climb trees but only up to a certain height. If you went higher Bob grabbed your ankle and gently pulled you back to the height he previously "let you". Otherwise you could do whatever you wanted to do on the tree and he didn't care. Otherwise never herded anyone ever.

My point is not the language. More that if a chinese coast guard would drag you out of the sea you wouldn't be saying "yeah the chinese have a strong herding reflex". You would say "this person doesn't want me to swim", or "this person thinks I'm in danger and I can't communicate that I'm not".

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2. kid64 ◴[05 Jul 25 23:15 UTC] No.44476322[source]▶
The behavior you're describing is instinctual. Difficult to relate to because we only see tiny remnants of instinctual behavior in humans. But I'd venture to guess that acting on instinct does not require any understanding of abstract concepts (or indeed the language in which such concepts would exist).