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932 points sohzm | 6 comments | | HN request time: 1.261s | source | bottom
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tombert ◴[] No.44460923[source]
Things like this are why I have become disillusioned with Open Source, and why latest projects have been closed source. The GPL is a good enough idea but it is basically impossible for anyone to realistically enforce. If a corporation is selling an optimized binary, then it can be almost impossible to prove that there was any violation of the GPL without viewing the source.
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rfl890 ◴[] No.44460940[source]
Well, if you're writing open source because you want to write open source, then none of this matters. If you are worried about corporations stealing your work, that should drive you away from OSS. OSS should stay "hobbyist" for the individual developer.
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tombert ◴[] No.44460972[source]
Sure but it sort of devalues labor.

If a corporation is stealing your OSS code (and violating a license) then that implies that they think your code has value, they might have paid a person to write that code but instead some hobbyist built it for free and a corporation steals it.

A few months ago, I made a pull request to LMAX Disruptor, which was merged. I was initially excited because even if my PR was simple it’s still a big project that I contributed to. But after a few minutes it occurred to me that I just did free labor for a for-profit trading company. If they merged in my code then must have thought it had some value, and I decided to dedicate my time to saving this multi million dollar company some money.

My PR there was pretty simple and only took me like 30 minutes (if that), so I am not going to cry too hard over this, but it’s just something that made me realize that if a company is going to use my work, they should pay me. I don’t think it’s wrong or weird to want to be compensated for my labor.

I am still a hobbyist. Turns out you can still be a hobbyist without sharing everything you’ve ever done on GitHub.

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1. nativeit ◴[] No.44460995[source]
It only devalues labor if it's leveraged specifically to do so. You could make this argument about literally any volunteer activity, software related or otherwise. The real devaluation of labor comes from things like the "gig economy" where costs and compensation are abstracted such that companies can exploit the naivete of workers who, generally speaking, are not accustomed to things like amortization and accounting for external costs, thus significantly driving down their own labor, operational expenses, and risks by passing them directly to the workers. At least open source projects are up-front about what's to be expected, and tend not to engage in exploitative practices.
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2. tombert ◴[] No.44461056[source]
I have had a bunch of jobs. When I have wanted to use open source libraries, I have been told “no” because the repo has no recent updates, because that suggests that whomever built it isn’t working it anymore. Conversely, where there are lots of updates, the project is likely to be used.

Why am I telling this story? Because it suggests to me that companies will only use these libraries if there is a guarantee of ongoing free labor; presumably they could use an old appropriate library and pay people to fix any issues as they come up. Admittedly, I know that some companies do exactly that, and that’s great, but I do not think it’s the majority.

I don’t think the people doing Open Source are bad people at all, far from it, in fact. I think a lot of these people are very smart and hard workers, and I think they should be compensated for their work, even if they are just “hobby projects”. If my project is creating value for a company, then that company can afford to pay me.

I don’t like the gig economy either but I don’t think it’s relevant to my complaints.

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3. bruce511 ◴[] No.44461698[source]
There are different actors in play here, and each one has a different perspective. That's OK, there's enough room in the world for different perspectives.

For the company, making use of Open Source code is free labor. That's good for them. You are free to offer that labor or not.

For some developers, it's cool to write code that's used by zillions. That's reward enough.

Other developers release the code for free, but build an eco system around it. They get paid for related work etc.

New developers use it to flex their skills, and demonstrate ability (and then get upset when someone else turns it into something profitable, but that's another story).

Personally I write code, and ship as source, but it's under a commercial license (cause I like to eat.) Other companies have business models around whatever they do.

You are free to act as you wish. Which is great. We live in an economy that allows each his preferred path.

You're right. Many startups open source their products specifically to get free labor, free marketing, or whatever. As payment they release the code they write to you. Whether you think that deal is right for uou or not us up to you.

If you believe you can add value to a company then reach out to them. It's not like they're "making" you work for free.

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4. tombert ◴[] No.44463673{3}[source]
Of course they’re not “making” me do anything, but I think they have weaponized well-meaning people to do work for them for free and masking it under some vague notion of “charity”.

You’re obviously free to disagree, but it’s why I have become disillusioned with it. I think it’s an exploitative relationship.

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5. bruce511 ◴[] No.44464471{4}[source]
I agree its often exploiting.

But presumably people who choose to participate in that relationship are getting something out of it, or they'd stop.

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6. tombert ◴[] No.44464900{5}[source]
People might not be fully aware of harm.

Plenty of people stay in violent abusive relationships when they really should leave, presumably because they feel like they’re getting something out of the relationship. That doesn’t give a free pass to the abuser.

I am not saying that companies using open source software are anywhere near as bad as a physically violent husband, I’m just saying that just because the contributor to OSS feels like they’re getting something from the relationship doesn’t absolve the corporation of its sins.

The current FOSS ecosystem feels like the tech equivalent of the “working for exposure” scam.