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289 points sandslash | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.204s | source
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jandrewrogers ◴[] No.44452056[source]
I appreciate the video and generally agree with Fei-Fei but I think it almost understates how different the problem of reasoning about the physical world actually is.

Most dynamics of the physical world are sparse, non-linear systems at every level of resolution. Most ways of constructing accurate models mathematically don’t actually work. LLMs, for better or worse, are pretty classic (in an algorithmic information theory sense) sequential induction problems. We’ve known for well over a decade that you cannot cram real-world spatial dynamics into those models. It is a clear impedance mismatch.

There are a bunch of fundamental computer science problems that stand in the way, which I was schooled on in 2006 from the brightest minds in the field. For example, how do you represent arbitrary spatial relationships on computers in a general and scalable way? There are no solutions in the public data structures and algorithms literature. We know that universal solutions can’t exist and that all practical solutions require exotic high-dimensionality computational constructs that human brains will struggle to reason about. This has been the status quo since the 1980s. This particular set of problems is hard for a reason.

I vigorously agree that the ability to reason about spatiotemporal dynamics is critical to general AI. But the computer science required is so different from classical AI research that I don’t expect any pure AI researcher to bridge that gap. The other aspect is that this area of research became highly developed over two decades but is not in the public literature.

One of the big questions I have had since they announced the company, is who on their team is an expert in the dark state-of-the-art computer science with respect to working around these particular problems? They risk running straight into the same deep, layered theory walls that almost everyone else has run into. I can’t identify anyone on the team that is an expert in a relevant area of computer science theory, which makes me skeptical to some extent. It is a nice idea but I don’t get the sense they understand the true nature of the problem.

Nonetheless, I agree that it is important!

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andoando ◴[] No.44456958[source]
What's non linear about spatial reasoning?

>We know that universal solutions can’t exist

Why not?

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randcraw ◴[] No.44457194[source]
Spatial models must be 3D, not 1D (linear), much less 2D, which is sufficient for images and object recognition (where models are not needed). And adding time makes it 4D, at least for robot motion.

To reason spatially (and dynamically) the dependence of one object's position in space on other objects (and their motions and behaviors) adds up fast to complicate the model in ways that 95% of 2D static image analysis does not.

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1. andoando ◴[] No.44457287[source]
Well hold on, first Im not convinced we have solved 2D spatial intelligence. Analyzing 2D images is very different from being able to reason about 2D geometry. How do you mathematically define relations like "above", "below", "diagonal", etc in a composable way that can be learned?

Second, problems in 3D can be deconstructed to 2D. For example, how do you get to the airport? You need to first solve the 2D overview of the path youd take as youd now looking at a map. Then you need to reason about your field of view, and here again I believe youre really reasoning is something like "object A is behind object B and A is to the left of B", and not solving some non linear equation

I think a big issue is people are trying to solve this in the realm of traditional mathematics, and not as a simple step by step process