Most active commenters
  • ta1243(4)
  • myrmidon(3)

←back to thread

131 points Traces | 12 comments | | HN request time: 1.676s | source | bottom
1. myrmidon ◴[] No.44442370[source]
I think increased automation and now AI are making wealth inequality problems inherently worse.

The existence (and prevalence) of food delivery work alone is a depressing portent in my view: If delivering food for objectively shitty pay is still a viable option for a lot of people, that signals to me that human labor has become borderline worthless (even in a wealthy/developed environment).

That makes the "american dream" (=> start from nothing, do a good job, become wealthy) increasingly less realistic.

I'm also afraid that this (preventing wealth inequality from getting out-of-control) might be a "practically unsolvable" problem for democracies in general (just like managing housing and public pensions): It is too easy to "sabotage" democratic progress for the negatively affected minority (and that minority is exceedingly powerful/well-positioned, too).

replies(3): >>44442463 #>>44442554 #>>44450203 #
2. barney54 ◴[] No.44442463[source]
AI hasn't had an impact yet.

Automation is great and has made things undeniably better. In the 1800s, 30% of the US GDP was tree cutting. https://x.com/AlecStapp/status/1939912893102760063 Before automation, nearly everyone was involved with agriculture. Today is much better.

replies(1): >>44442609 #
3. ta1243 ◴[] No.44442554[source]
In the US, over the last 45 years, work has increased in value about 3.5% a year, and the S&P about 9.5% a year.

Work is not valued, wealth is.

replies(2): >>44442713 #>>44442766 #
4. myrmidon ◴[] No.44442609[source]
I'm not saying that things are necessarily gonna get worse-- just that human work decreasing in relative value creates huge (new!) problems for our current wealth distribution mechanisms.

Maybe there is an easy way to have our cake and eat it, too (like consistent wealth taxation like the article suggests), but I'm doubtful.

In the past, basically every form of investment used to involve human labor to some degree-- meaning that every rich industrial magnate also automatically created opportunities for zero-net-worth workers/builders/employees.

But when your big investments just become server racks and industrial robots, then you no longer have this balancing mechanism, and you probably need to do something to prevent wealth concentration without bounds (and to guarantee opportunities for "worthless" individuals).

5. myrmidon ◴[] No.44442713[source]
This is exactly what I mean-- I think also the whole housing affordability is just another side of this coin: Buying a home grew more expensive (in terms of median income) for decades, and that alone is a huge problem in my view, with no realistic solution that I can see (=> except demand implosion from a shrinking population, which would probably create twice the amount of problems that it solves...)
replies(1): >>44443647 #
6. bluecalm ◴[] No.44442766[source]
Why would you compare a unit of work (say an hour) to a cumulative index? It just doesn't make any sense to compare those two values.
replies(1): >>44446266 #
7. ta1243 ◴[] No.44443647{3}[source]
Housing costs in the western world is the root cause of everything. Housing costs on a monthly basis increase to take all income, because the demand for housing is higher than the supply.

You can't simply reduce your consumption, because you are reliant on everyone doing the same thing.

Rent controls don't help because that means housing simply has to be rationed in another way which is typically worse.

The solution is to increase housing supply in high demand areas.

replies(1): >>44448119 #
8. ta1243 ◴[] No.44446266{3}[source]
An hour of work buys far less of a percentage of the value of US companies than it did 20 years ago.

in 1983 a single "share" in the S&P, or a single unit of American business, cost $120, about 13 hours work at the median wage then of about $9/hr.

Today you would have work for about 200 hours at the median wage of $30/hr to buy the same single share ($6200)

Companies have ballooned in value relative to median earnings. And top 10%ile earnings too for that matter.

9. ethbr1 ◴[] No.44448119{4}[source]
Has anywhere tried rent taxes to fund new construction?

It'd need to be strictly tied with a viable building method, to limit NIMBY problems, but would accomplish the goal.

If rent for class Y housing is $A, and the target price is a lesser $B, then tax the $A-$B difference at a high rate, with 100% of the tax proceeds being used to directly fund new class Y housing creation.

Bigger delta = more funding for new construcion

replies(1): >>44452924 #
10. int_19h ◴[] No.44450203[source]
Anything that increases productivity per person creates a potential for increasing wealth inequality, because the more each person can create, the more can be taken away from them by someone else. Pre-agricultural societies generally tend to be very egalitarian with no clear economic elites, but you start to see the wealthy elite class manifest in those of them where even without agriculture per-person yield is so high (e.g. PNW Salish) that it's possible for a few people to live off the surplus generated by the rest. Agriculture gives a massive boost to yields, and all societies that went down that route quickly lost their original egalitarianism. AI is just another step down the same road.

But note that this is a potential, not an inevitable outcome. This outcome is more likely because there is a positive feedback loop at play here: if you can somehow force people who generate wealth with their labor to surrender part of that wealth to you, you can use those resources to improve your ability to forcibly exploit others (e.g. by hiring more armed goons in a primitive society, or by bribing politicians who pass laws that are ultimately enforced by "public servant" goons in a more advanced society like ours). Simply put, wealth can buy power, and the resulting increase in power disparity can be used to extract more wealth from the people producing it. Thus the natural trend of technological advancement is towards income inequality ... but a society can still go against the current, it just takes a lot more effort on behalf of the citizenry.

11. ta1243 ◴[] No.44452924{5}[source]
If there's demand, companies will fund new construction. The problem is that planning, zoning, nimby restrictions means you can't

The invisible hand of the market certainly isn't all powerful, just like chickens aren't spherical and travel in a vaccuum, but when you stick it in a plaster cast as we do with housing, it becomes useless.

If you tax rental, what about owners? They won't care, they don't pay the tax.

replies(1): >>44454235 #
12. ethbr1 ◴[] No.44454235{6}[source]
> If there's demand, companies will fund new construction.

Not necessarily. Companies will fund new construction that gives them the best returns.

Because there are rarely luxury limits on what can be built on land, this results in the most square footage, luxurious house that the market will bear.

> If you tax rental, what about owners? They won't care, they don't pay the tax.

Owners would pay the tax in this scenario.