The $25k car is going extinct?

They are disappearing in europe too. Emissions and other required by law equipment costs just as much on cheap car as it does on expensive one. At some point, cheap cars stop beinf cheap, just a bit cheaper but with way worse quality, so they stop making sense.

It's true that affordable European models are disappearing. The average mid-range offering from, say, Volkswagen, has become quite surprisingly expensive.

But this is why Chinese cars are taking over in Europe. Half the new cars I see are from Geely, BYD, Chery, etc. These average about 20,000-25,000 EUR new.

My own opinion, having looked into the matter a bit, is that you'd have to be insane to buy a Volkswagen or BMW at 2-3x the price. If I were in the market for a new car, I wouldn't consider anything but a Chinese car.

These regulations are probably used for protectionism. The consumer has to pay for that though. I don't think the market for new cars within the EU can exist for very long with these rules in place.

They partially demand systems that aren't fully developed yet, it is a completely insane thing to do. I guess other manufacturers pushed the EU to install the requirements to protect the dwindling domestic market.

There are cheaper European cars than VW (and why compare with their 'average mid-range offering'?).

The new (and widely liked) Renault 5 EV starts at around €21K, for instance. Probably a bit smaller than something made in China for the same money, but not worlds apart. https://www.renault.fr/vehicules-electriques/r5-e-tech-elect...

> why compare with their 'average mid-range offering'?

Because when it comes to features and trim, the average Geely or BYD is essentially on that level (or better). They tend to be quite large and very polished.

It's certainly true that Renault has some inexpensive models -- the Clio is another one that can be had for ~20k EUR -- but they are indeed small.

Yes, you can buy a Dacia for below 20kEur, but even those have gotten far more expensive lately. It used to be that around 10 years ago, a Dacia Logan (typical station wagon family car) could be had for 11kEur. Nowadays the comparable Dacia Duster (SUV instead of station wagon, but somewhat similar slightly smaller internal space) will set you back 18kEur. Most of this price hike is claimed to come from mandatory electronics like eCall, collision avoidance, fatigue sensors, more complex bodywork due to crash requirements, as well as more complex engines due to emission controls.

With your quoted Renault EV models, you really have to be careful, often they don't give the full price but just the price without battery. The battery has to be bought or rented separately.

Just because they are not heavily advertised, doesnt mean they don't exist.

Dacia Sandero/Duster/Spring exist. (Renault)

Citroen C1, Toyota Aygo, Peugeot 108, (VW up!.)

Considering Volkswagen Group:

With a choice of Skoda Fabia/Seat Ibiza/VW Polo you would go for Skoda or Seat, not the VW brand itself if you dont care about marque but price.

But prestige is a huge factor still, so people would still go for an overpriced Golf for no apparent other reason

Also 20k-equivalent from 2015-2019 is already above 25k just by inflation. Car manufactures have strong unions so that stuff comes around fast.

So you simply can't expect the old sub 20k cars anymore, that's 25k now.

> If I were in the market for a new car, I wouldn't consider anything but a Chinese car.

The problem with these are a few things:

1. service network. When something goes kaput with a VW, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, GM, Toyota and even Tesla, there's ample service stations available to get the car back up and running. With a Chinese manufacturer no one but car nerds has heard about? Good luck finding anyone willing to even touch the thing, much less have that specific manufacturer's tooling to deal with computer problems.

2. spare parts logistics. Even the richest and most successful of the last 20 years worth of automotive startups has serious trouble getting spare parts to broken cars. Why should some random Chinese brand be any better than that?

3. Crash safety. "Chinesium" alloy is a meme at this point, but one based on truth. Who guarantees that the manufacturer didn't cheap out on production runs after the review/crashtest rating units went out?

4. Battery safety. Batteries are already hard enough to pull off at scale without sending an armada of tiny little bomblets around the planet... who guarantees that there is no supply chain fuckery going on?

> It used to be that around 10 years ago...

10 years ago, a Doener Kebab was also only half the price it is today though ;)

These are quite laughable, even disingenuous-seeming, objections.

- Everywhere they're sold there is a service center and parts are cheap. As for "Chinese manufacturer no one but car nerds has heard about":

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automotive_manufacture...

- The "chinesium" meme thing is a joke, you realize that, right? This is not a serious objection. Even the original greentext from ~2013 was really dumb, with the purchaser not running adequate tests.

- CATL is pretty much the undisputed champion of making high-end batteries.

Your understanding of what’s happened with Chinese cars is 15 years out of date. They’re really good now, even better in some ways. And honestly, it’s just the push that the legacy car builders needed.

I’d actually argue that it’s not the cost of Chinese cars but their actual offerings. Compared to the state of Chinese cars a decade ago their current product products are really interesting and offer features that European, American and other Asian models don’t. There’s a great channel called wheels boy on YouTube that’s worth checking out.

> so 20k-equivalent from 2015-2019 is already above 25k just by inflation.

Its not inflation alone ... The same brand/car type, tends to have seen a 75% price increase over the mentioned periode.

Something that used to cost 20k euro in the 2015 periode, is now around 35k euro. That is not "inflation". An we are talking same trim, same electronics, same gasoline engines.

Cars beyond a few items (as long as we do not talk about jump from gas to electric) have really not changed that much. There was a big jump from the 90's to the 2000, in terms of electronics (and sensors that are the bane for most car mechanics).

Prices have gone up so much, that it resulted in my 15 year old second hand car, being sold now for more, then when i bought it (and that inc the increased km's driven and age). That is not a normal market and is not explained by simple "inflation".

Its part inflation, a large part greed, and do not forget the consolidation / lack of competition over the year. People overlook how many car brands are now part of the same group. This resulted in less competition because multiple "brands" increased prices over the same period, when its really the same company, using parts in between each other, and your mostly paying for a different shell and "brand name / past reputation".

That is why Chinese car makers are able to enter the EU market so easily, despite the market protection with import taxations.

If you can offer a true hybrid with all the trims like solar roof, full electronics, the works at 36k, and the next EU competitor for the same options is 48k (and a less efficient hybrid aka, electronic boost only)... And that included the import taxation.

Its ironic that we need to do market protection because our own brands got caught sleeping at the wheel.

I know very little about cars but it seems to be on parity with the rest of the market. The days of Chinesium are over. Or rather, you’re seeing very similar quality no matter which country the product was ”designed” in, as they like to put it. All of the old quality consumer brands have cheaped out and are same or worse than no-name brands on Amazon. I just bought a Miele vacuum that’s ”designed in Germany”. Very flimsy build quality.

So why not skip the middleman and go directly to the source? The only annoyance for me is the ridiculous white labeling. Most no-name brands are seemingly coming from the same factories / same designs, so it’s often impossible to find quality reviews. Probably partly Bezos fault because Amazons review system are less trustworthy than a used car dealership. So I’d rather pay more for known flaws than the hit-or-miss gamble of no-name brands with fake reviews. I hope Chinese merchants catch up, because they’re losing customers for no particularly good reason. I just want the reviews, warts and all.

Here in the UK, the price of the base-spec Dacia Sandero (and comparable cars like the Kia Picanto and Hyundai i10) has more than doubled in six years. The C1, 108 and Up! have been discontinued, as have a raft of other cheap small cars.

That's partly explained by inflation, but also by the massive amounts of extra safety equipment mandated by the General Safety Regulation. The bill of materials for cheap cars has increased by thousands of euros, because they're legally required to have cameras and radar.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2014_2019/plmrep/COM...

A Dacia Spring is still around £11k at the cheapest dealers, Sandero about £16k, and a Renault Clio about £17k, Kia Picanto £15k. All for bottom end variants with no extras, but gets you there.

It's not just prestige. Who wants a 65 HP engine? I need my 110 HP to get away from bad situations. And like the article said. The cheaper cars are more expensive than before and the more luxury ones are still expensive obviously but not much more than they used to be.

They might be good, but service network/spare part logistics is a huge issue at least in Europe. We can also expect some of them will go bankrupt because of the current price war. Of course European manfuacturers can also go bankrupt but at least spare parts will still be available by parts/aftermarket manufacturers, will this be the case for these too?

Renault ended their battery leasing program in 2021: https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/news/168706/new-renault-zoe-price...

The Renault 5 prices in gmac's link is with battery.

People used to say the same things about Japanese cars...

In what way are they disappearing ? Here's one for less than £12k. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?advertising-location...

You can't really compare prices for "European cars" like that without specifying the country you're buying in. When I go to Renault's website, the starting price is €24990. Prices vary country by country, as do incentives, subsidies, and taxes.

Still a €25k car, but that's still a $29k car.

That's a very reasonable argument. Personally I'd only go with a larger brand. Those Zeekers are very compelling and look good (European designed):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvnZ0mTCBng

Cars are a large enough part of the budget that they might just drive a significant part of inflation by themselves.

Are we sure that inflation numbers have not been underreported ?

What about the hardware that has also been manufactured in Europe though ? (Alternatively, South Korea/Japan.)

I have been putting my trust in these. (Also looking for 3+ years of manufacturer warranty, guarantees of 10ish years for replaceable parts, high reparability scores...)

Hopefully, they won't let me down.

(Also, never buying on Amazon. Had to break that rule a few times of course over the past decade, but only for <100€ items.)