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BusyBeaver(6) Is Quite Large

(scottaaronson.blog)
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Scarblac ◴[] No.44406478[source]
It boggles my mind that a number (an uncomputable number, granted) like BB(748) can be "independent of ZFC". It feels like a category error or something.
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ChadNauseam ◴[] No.44406574[source]
The number itself is not independent of ZFC. (Every integer can be expressed in ZFC.) What's independent of ZFC is the process of computing BB(748).
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Straw ◴[] No.44406611[source]
Sure, if someone just gives you the number, ZFC can represent it. But ZFC cannot prove that the value is correct, so how do you know you have the right number? Use a stronger proof system? Go a bit bigger and same issue.
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ajkjk ◴[] No.44406771[source]
Not an expert, but I've read about this a bit because it bothered me also and I think this is the answer:

Most of these 'uncomputable' problems are uncomputable in the sense of the halting problem: you can write down an algorithm that should compute them, but it might never halt. That's the sense in which BB(x) is uncomputable: you won't know if you're done ever, because you can't distinguish a machine that never halts from one that just hasn't halted yet (since it has an infinite number of states, you can't just wait for a loop).

So presumably the independence of a number from ZFC is like that also: you can't prove it's the value of BB(745) because you won't know if you've proved it; the only way to prove it is essentially to run those Turing machines until they stop and you'll never know if you're done.

I'm guessing that for the very small Turing machines there is not enough structure possible to encode whatever infinitely complex states end up being impossible to deduce halting from, so they end up being Collatz-like and then you can go prove things about them using math. As you add states the possible iteration steps go wild and eventually do stuff that is beyond ZFC to analyze.

So the finite value 745 isn't really where the infinity/uncomputability comes from-it comes from the infinite tape that can produce arbitrarily complex functions. (I wonder if over a certain number of states it becomes possible to encoding a larger Turing machine in the tape somehow, causing a sort of divergence to infinite complexity?)

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thaumasiotes ◴[] No.44409201[source]
> Most of these 'uncomputable' problems are uncomputable in the sense of the halting problem: you can write down an algorithm that should compute them, but it might never halt. That's the sense in which BB(x) is uncomputable: you won't know if you're done ever, because you can't distinguish a machine that never halts from one that just hasn't halted yet (since it has an infinite number of states, you can't just wait for a loop).

> So presumably the independence of a number from ZFC is like that also: you can't prove it's the value of BB(745) because you won't know if you've proved it; the only way to prove it is essentially to run those Turing machines until they stop and you'll never know if you're done.

These aren't similar ideas. You can't know if a machine that hasn't halted yet will ever halt. But you can easily know if a machine that has already halted was going to halt.

Independence is the second case. For the value of BB(x) to be independent of ZFC, one of two things must hold:

(1) ZFC is inconsistent, and therefore all statements are independent of it.

(2) ZFC is consistent with two different statements, "BB(x) = a" and "BB(x) = b" for two different a, b. This means that a disproof of either statement cannot exist.

This, in turn, means that there is no observation you could ever make that would distinguish between the values a and b (for the identity of BB(x)). No matter what you believe the value of BB(x) might secretly be, there are no consequences; nothing anywhere could ever change if the value turned out to be different. Because, if there were an observable consequence of the value being different, the hypothetical observation of that consequence would be a disproof of the value that didn't cause it, and no such disproof can exist.

Neither value, a or b, can be more true than the other as the answer to the question "what is BB(x)?". It doesn't make sense to consider that question to have an answer at all.

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Scarblac ◴[] No.44411311[source]
What happens if you take the larger of a and b and run all the Turing machines for that many steps?
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1. Kranar ◴[] No.44415507[source]
Among all possible values of BB(n) for some fixed n, it's the smallest such value that is the true value.

The issue is that there is no way within ZFC to determine which value is the smallest.