It boggles my mind that a number (an uncomputable number, granted) like BB(748) can be "independent of ZFC". It feels like a category error or something.
replies(12):
Running for fewer steps is extremely well defined and I don’t imagine that enters into this.
That means there’s issue is “never stop”? That also seems pretty well defined to me. For BB(748) to vary based on your model, if the machines that run for fewer steps don’t change, then that means one of the machines that never stops in one model will stop in another. Or the BB winner for our model will never stop in another model.
How can changing your model make it so a specific Turing machine goes from stopping after 10,000 steps to never stopping, or from never stopping to stopping after 11,000 steps?
So in one model a Turing Machine called R never stops. In another model R stops after Q steps. But here's the issue... Q isn't an actual natural number, what it is is some mathematical object that satisfies all of the properties of a natural number in ZFC, but is not an actual natural number. What it actually is is some infinitely large object that satisfies all of the Peano axioms of what a natural number is as well as satisfies the following set of rules:
Q > 0
Q > 1
Q > 2
Q > 3
...
So within this model, the Turing machine R halts after Q steps, and since from within the model Q is finite then from within this model BB(748) is at least equal to Q.
If BB(748) is actually 10,000, then we can add this as an axiom to ZFC to get a new formal theory ZFC + "BB(748) = 10000".
In this new theory the previous structure that contained Q as an element will not satisfy the definition of a natural number, so we don't have to worry about Q anymore... however, there will exist some number T > 748 where BB(T) is independent of our new theory. For BB(T), there will exist some other model that has its own Q* which satisfies all of our axioms including the axiom that BB(748) = 10000, but also that
Q* > 0
Q* > 1
Q* > 2
Q* > 3
...
If there’s another model where this machine doesn’t stop, then that means that at some point during this process, you reach a particular machine state and tape contents and transition to a different state than you did in the first model. That has to happen, because otherwise the execution follows the same process as before, and halts at Q steps. But the mechanics of the machine don’t depend on your theory. They’re just state transitions and tape operations.
Q isn't a natural number because natural numbers must be finite, but Q is infinitely large.
>If you had unlimited time and paper, you could sit down and run the machine by hand, counting each step, until it reaches the halting state. You will have counted Q steps.
What if the machine never stops? How many steps will you run before you decide that the machine never halts?
>There’s no such thing as a machine that stops after a number of steps defined by an infinitely large construct.
There's no such thing as an actual machine that stops after an infinite number of steps, but that's not the issue. The issue is that ZFC has different models with conflicting definitions of what infinite is. In one model there is an object called Q that satisfies all of the properties in ZFC of being a natural number, but is infinitely large. In this model the Turing Machine halts after Q steps. But there is another model, called the standard model, and in this model there is no Q, all elements of this model are actually finite, and in this model the Turing machine never halts.
ZFC doesn't know which of these two models is the "real" model of natural numbers. From within ZFC both of these models satisfy all properties of natural numbers. It's only from outside of ZFC that one of these models is wrong, namely the model that contains Q as an element.
You can add more axioms to ZFC to get rid of the model that has Q as an element, but if the resulting theory containing your new axiom is consistent, then it necessarily follows that there is some other model that will contain some element Q* which is also infinitely large but from within the theory satisfies all of the new/stronger properties of being a natural number.
That doesn’t make any sense. A Turing machine can’t halt after a infinite number of steps. It either halts after a finite number of steps, or it never halts.
I’m sure there are models of hypercomputation and corresponding “what’s the largest number of steps they can run?” functions that would admit infinities, but those would not be Turing machines and the function would not be the Busy Beaver.
What the commenter above you said doesn't make sense in our daily life, but it makes perfect sense when in comes to non-standard models.
You got confused because you're thinking natural numbers as something we can count in real physical world, which is a perfectly sane mental model, and that is why there was a comment above said:
> People find that weird because they don't think about non-standard models, as arguably they shouldn't.
Q is not a number you can actually count, so it doesn't fit into our intuition of natural number. The point is not that Q exists in some physical sense in real life, like "3" in "3 apples" (it doesn't). The point is that ZF itself isn't strong enough to prevent you from defining random shit like Q as a natural number.
Ultrafinitism? If you'd run the Turing machine that performs BB(748) steps in a physical universe that admits it, you'd get a physical representation of BB(748). If you have a competing theory about which Turing machine computes BB(748), you can run them both alongside in this universe and see with your own eyes which one finishes first.
I guess from ultrafinitist's point of view such universe has different mathematics, but isn't it a fringe viewpoint in mathematical circles?
Sure, you can come up with a set of axioms where the natural numbers include infinities. You may be able to use it to prove interesting things. But all that does here it make it so that the set of numbers describing how many steps a Turing machine runs before it stops is no longer the “natural numbers.”
I'm not sure what flavor of ultrafinitism you're referring here. If it's the "very big numbers, like TREE(3), are not natural numbers as they are far bigger than the number of atoms in this universe..." kind, then it has nothing to do with what this is about.
> physical representation
> your own eyes
Non standard models of ZFC have nothing to do with our physical world. That's why no physicist or engineer cares about them (or cares about axiom systems at all). So we need to be very careful when connecting the idea of physical, running "stuff" to the discussion of ZFC.
Anyway, back to
> you can run them both alongside in this universe and see which one finishes first
There are two Turing Machines, Foo and Bar. We build and run them in our physical universe. Foo halts at the standard BB(748) steps. Bar just keeps running and running. That's what we will see with our own eyes.
The issue is that when we try to reason out whether Bar will ultimately halts, ZFC doesn't prevent us from defining a non-standard model where Bar halts after a non-standard number of steps. Note that the physical Bar will not halt in our universe. The "non-standard number of steps" is as nonsense as it sounds. It's just that ZFC doesn't prevent us from defining such a nonsense. The point of ZFC is it's compatible with almost all the useful, sane math. It's not necessarily incompatible with bullshit and insane math.
That is it. The fact that Bar is still keeping running in our universe is completely irrelevant.
But it does prevent you from defining a non-standard model where Bar halts after a finite number of steps. Since BB is finite by definition, the non-standard number of steps after which Bar halts cannot be BB(748).
I’m pretty sure you and the other commenter have this mixed up. The fact that BB(748) is independent of ZFC doesn’t mean there are different models that have different values of BB(748). It means that ZFC is insufficient to determine the value of BB(748). That value is still some finite integer, you just can’t prove which one it is. Equivalently, there is some 748-state Turing machine which never halts but ZFC cannot prove never halts.
And no, you can’t change your model such that this Turing machine halts in some non-standard number of steps. Or rather, you can, but that doesn’t actually change anything. The machine still doesn’t halt for the purposes of defining BB(748).
We really don't.
> that BB(748) is independent of ZFC
> there are different models that have different values of BB(748)
> ZFC is insufficient to determine the value of BB(748)
These three statements are equivalent.
f(n)=X is independent of ZFC means there are different models of ZFC that have different values of f(n). It's a very trivial theorem[0]. If you don't like it, I can't convince you otherwise.
> that doesn’t actually change anything
Changing the model will not change how any machine works in our physical, mechanical universe. However, it does change the value of BB(748).
I understand your line of thinking: There is only one mechanical universe, which is the one where we exist. We can build Turing machines in this universe. BB(n) depends on Turning machines. Since there is only one single universe, there is only one single value of BB(n).
It's a perfectly fine mental model for most cases. This was exactly how I thought when the first time I heard about BB(n). But it's not the kind of math than Scott Aaronson et al. are doing.
Bar keeps running in our mechanical universe. But it can also halt in some non-standard number of steps. This weird, absurd-sounding proposition works because non-standard numbers simply don't map to anything in mechanical universe. They're purely abstract objects living in ZFC+~Con(ZFC).
[0]: Given f(n)=X is independent of ZFC. Which means f(n)=X and ~(f(n)=X) are both consistent relative to ZFC. Therefore, if there is any model of ZFC, there is a model M1 that entails ZFC+(f(n)=X), and a model M2 that entails ZFC+~(f(n)=X). The value of f(n) cannot be the same in M1 and M2.
That is we can add a nonsensical axiom and get a consistent nonsensical theory that has nothing to do with actually running Turing machines (no matter in which physical or abstract universe they run). Er, OK, fine I guess.
A universally inapplicable theory.
No. I can't wrap my head around it. Successors for the tape state are defined for the initial segment of a non-standard natural numbers. How the proof of termination would even look like? Something non-constructive that doesn't allow to choose the machine among a finite number of the machines?
What is “a model” here? Can I say that there’s a model ZFC’ which is the same as ZFC except that 107 is considered to be equivalent to 200, and therefore BB(4) in ZFC’ is actually 200? Or can I say that ZFC’’ says integers only go up to 100 and therefore BB(4) is 100 in that model? Or is it something more restricted than that?
You'd be defining a new axiomatic system here, not just a model of ZFC. I don't know how we're going to formalize Turning machine in this system, but if we managed to do it, the value of BB(4) is likely to be indeed 100, at least for some models of this new system.
Roughly speaking, a model of ZFC is a set and a binary relationship over the set, whose members all satisfy every axiom of ZFC. Obviously this super simplified definition does a crazy amount of handwaving.
But we don't need to accept or understand the idea of model. What we need to accept is this simple idea:
An axiomatic system can be consistent, but wrong.
For example, if ZFC is consistent, then T = ZFC+~Con(ZFC) would be consistent as well. But this T is wrong, as it believes ZFC is inconsistent.
Similarly, if ZFC is indeed consistent, then T is wrong about which Turing machines halt. Therefore it would have a wrong value of BB(748) (and many other BB(n)).
However, since ZFC can't prove its own consistency, it can't prove that value is wrong. That's why there are different values of BB(748). Those values are not necessarily equally correct, it's just that ZFC isn't strong enough to prove which one is wrong.
Models, nonstandard natural numbers, etc... are more or less technical details (so mathematicians can avoid scary terms like 'wrong'.)
And since we can find a four-state Turing machine that runs for more than 100 steps before halting, ZFC’’ is just not correct when it says that BB(4) = 100, but we still say that 100 is the value in that model?
From within those models Q satisfies all the properties of being a natural number but it's not actually a natural number. Q is some successor of 0, you can add 1 to Q to get another distinct mathematical object, there is some predecessor to Q called P so that P + 1 = Q, etc etc... Q satisfies all the properties within ZFC of being a natural number but it isn't an actual natural number.
Furthermore if ZFC is consistent then it's impossible for any model of ZFC to have BB(4) = 100. ZFC is sufficiently powerful to prove that BB(4) != 100, it is not sufficiently powerful enough to prove that BB(748) = F for some actual natural number F.
Yes, between you and me we know that BB(n) needs to be a natural number, but we have no way to formally and uniquely define what natural numbers are. The best we can do is come up with a formal definition of natural numbers that includes the actual natural numbers but will also include other number systems that contain mathematical objects that are infinitely big and hence are not actual natural numbers. Hence our formal definition of natural numbers will not uniquely define a single set of numbers {0, 1, 2, 3, ...}, there will be other sets of numbers such as {0, 1, 2, 3, ..., Q - 1, Q, Q + 1, ...} for some infinitely large object Q that satisfy the formal definition of natural numbers. Between you and me, we both know Q isn't an actual natural number, but what we don't know is what formal rule we need to add to our formal definition of natural numbers in order to get rid of Q. In fact, it's worse than that; we know that even if we add a rule that gets rid of Q, there will always be some other number system {0, 1, 2, 3, ..., Q* - 1, Q*, Q* + 1, ...} to take its place. No formal definition can ever uniquely define the natural numbers (unless that formal system is inconsistent).
It's also true that a model where BB(748) = Q is not the actual BB, it's some other function. The problem is that this model satisfies all of the rules of ZFC and all of the properties that ZFC says natural numbers must satisfy and hence it satisfies the formal definition of BB even though it isn't the actual BB. Remember it is impossible for the formal definition of BB to include the property that BB(n) = an actual natural number, because there is no formal definition that uniquely singles out what the actual natural numbers are. Since there exists one such model that satisfies all of the rules about BB but isn't actually the real BB then we can't use ZFC to formally prove what the value of BB(748) actually is.
What we can do is add new rules to ZFC get rid of this model, but that will only push the issue down to BB(749) or BB(750) or maybe if pick a really powerful rule we push the issue down to BB(800)... but the point stands that adding new rules only pushes the problem further down the road, it never eliminates the problem entirely.
How could such a definition give rise to such a set with Q in it?
What it means specifically? ZFC+~(BB(748)=N) allows to extend definition of the Turing machine to a non-standard number of steps?
Can "BB(748) is undefined" be a provable theorem in ZFC+~(BB(748)=N) instead?
While we know that ZFC+~(BB(748)=N) is consistent, we don't know whether \exist Q!=N where ZFC+(BB(748)=Q) is consistent.
Intuitively I see it as: by adding axiom ~(BB(748)=N), we codify that this formal system isn't powerful enough to describe a Turing machine with 748 states (and probably all the machines with number of states greater than 748).
What you described doesn't rule out {0,1,2... Q-1,Q,Q+1...}, because you only defined how to yield new natural number, but not exclude things that are not yielded that way from N (the set of all natural numbers).
Now, our intuition is to add this missing part into our axioms, right?
So instead:
> 0 is a natural number, and if n is a natural number then so is S(n)
We say:
> For any X⊆N, if 0 ∈ X, and for every n ∈ X, S(n) ∈ X, then X=N.
This is a perfect valid axiom. And it does rule out the nonstandard shit: for a set N' that looks like {0,1,2... Q-1,Q,Q+1...}, we can get X = {0,1,2...}, which is a subset of N'. According to this axiom, if N'=N then X=N', but it clearly doesn't because Q∈X while ~(Q∈N'). Therefore, N' isn't N.
However, this axiom is not included in the commonly accepted Peano Arithmetic! The reason is that this uses second-order logic, and Peano Arithmetic is a first-order theory.
The above axiom effectively defines a predicate, f(X), which accepts a set as input and returns whether the set is N. This is second-order logic.
Peano Arithmetic, being first-order logic, doesn't have such predicate. This is why we can't rule out these nonstandard {0,1,2... Q-1,Q,Q+1...}.
When it comes to ZFC, it's more complicate as in ZFC, 'natural numbers' are ordinals of sets. But ZFC is written in first-order logic as well, and it's known that an axiomatic system written in first-order logic will have nonstandard models. Even if you can rule out {0,1,2... Q-1,Q,Q+1...} by defining PA in ZFC in some unusual way or adding new axioms to ZFC, as long as it's still a first-order theory, it will have 0 (if inconsistent) or multiple (if consistent) models[0].
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B6wenheim%E2%80%93Skolem_...
But the other commenter said:
"Yes, between you and me we know that BB(n) needs to be a natural number, but we have no way to formally and uniquely define what natural numbers are. The best we can do is come up with a formal definition of natural numbers that includes the actual natural numbers but will also include other number systems that contain mathematical objects that are infinitely big and hence are not actual natural numbers."
Is there some subtlety that allows both of these statements to be true, or is this just a contradiction? Was the other commenter implicitly assuming "unless you involve second-order logic"?
In first order logic it's impossible to uniquely define any property that would also uniquely define the natural numbers.
What second order logic does let you do is deal with only one single model, called the categorical model. So instead of having a theory that has a whole bunch of different models including the actual natural numbers along with undesirable models that contain infinitely large values... you can force your theory to have one single model, no more "It's true in this model, but it's false in that other nonstandard model that's getting in the way." So yes in a particular theory of second order logic BB(748) has one single value because there is only one single model.
So problem solved right? Not even close... because that one single categorical model being used to represent the natural numbers may not be the actual natural numbers, the intended natural numbers where every number is actually finite. Having one single categorical model does not imply working with the actual model you intended to work with. Depending on your choice of second order theory you may be operating within a theory where the single categorical model is indeed unbeknownst to you {0, 1, 2, 3, ..., Q - 1, Q, Q + 1, ...} and hence BB(748) is equal to Q and you'll have no way of knowing this before hand since you lack an effective proof system.
>For any X⊆N, if 0 ∈ X, and for every n ∈ X, S(n) ∈ X, then X=N.
You're right that this is a perfectly valid axiom in SOL, but it's not true that it rules out non-standard "shit". What this axiom does is it forces your theory to have a single model, the categorical model. But this axiom does not in anyway pick out the standard model as the categorical model, it doesn't force the categorical model to be the standard model. It's possible that N = {0, 1, 2, ..., Q - 1, Q, Q + 1, ...} in which case the categorical model ends up being nonstandard. This axiom has no way to force N to be intended standard model.
But then its unsound, isn't it? Isn't our background assumption that ZFC is consistent and sound? It can't prove its own consistency, but we are assuming that under standard models, it is sound.
> For example, if ZFC is consistent, then T = ZFC+~Con(ZFC) would be consistent as well.
It would be consistent if ZFC didn't also prove ZFC+Con(ZFC), but then it would indeed be unsound.
> Similarly, if ZFC is indeed consistent, then T is wrong about which Turing machines halt. Therefore it would have a wrong value of BB(748) (and many other BB(n)).
No, if it's sound, it just doesn't have a proof of the form "BB(748)=K" for any K.
> However, since ZFC can't prove its own consistency, it can't prove that value is wrong. That's why there are different values of BB(748). Those values are not necessarily equally correct, it's just that ZFC isn't strong enough to prove which one is wrong.
No, ZFC is just not strong enough to prove any of these.
We can come up with some function BB' that admits that, but it's just a different function.
It seems we can't even define a function with standard domain and non-standard codomain while not using literals for non-standard numbers in its definition.
That is ~(BB(748)=ActualValueOfBB748) is false even if it can't be proven in ZFC. In a sense, busy beaver creates its own mathematical reality.
>I think the more correct statement is that there are different models of ZFC in which BB(748) are different numbers.
You asked how this was possible and that's the specific question that I am addressing. As I mentioned elsewhere, to fully appreciate this answer requires parsing some very subtle and nuanced details that simply can not be glossed over or dismissed, if you genuinely want to know how it's possible that ZFC can be consistent even though different models give different values of BB(748).
If you want to argue something else, about what model is correct or what model is incorrect, that's a perfectly fine argument to have but it's more in the realm of philosophy than it is in the realm of formal mathematics.