'Sticky thinking' hampers decisions in depression

Being an engineer, I use the analogy of SNR, signal to noise ratio. Depression and anxiety, often comorbid, raise the noise floor to the point that it is incredibly hard to feel confident that a decision can be made. This in turn results in a decision NOT being made and progress dragging on... which only raises the tension around the situation. It is a horribly vicious downward cycle.

I have seen this first hand in loved ones and also experienced it occasionally myself, though thankfully less frequently. I am extremely adept at compartmentalizing, including work and life... but a deep depression knows no limits easily bleeds over into everything. The mental noise is deafening. I was shocked how strong the effect was during a recent episode of depression, despite my typically strong executive functioning skills.

Equally amazing is the 'blue skies' and 'quiet mind' that can be achieved with proper treatment, for which I am infinitely grateful.

Please seek out help if you are struggling.

> 'blue skies' and 'quiet mind'

Damn, those simple words just did a little magic in my brain.

> Depression and anxiety, often comorbid, raise the noise floor to the point that it is incredibly hard to feel confident that a decision can be made. This in turn results in a decision NOT being made and progress dragging on.

That's an interesting way to put it! I used to think of it in terms of switching off the parts of my brain that do all the useful thinking, it's like I'm reaching for a tool and the tool is just not there. Last time it happened I even convinced myself that I would never be able to work again - thankfully my boss was very supportive, gave me some time off and allowed me to ease myself back into work. This was almost a decade ago now.

If you wrote a book called "Mental Health for Engineers" I'd read it. You are very good at articulating the subjective experience.

> Depression and anxiety, often comorbid, raise the noise floor to the point that it is incredibly hard to feel confident that a decision can be made.

maybe replace 'depression' with something else but, at work, if i'm on a call with more than 10 people decision making becomes almost impossible. I think anxiety in the virtual room is high and everyone just becomes paralyzed. I've resorted to random dice rolls to make decisions in some of these cases hah.

edit: i'll add that the threat of one of my random dice rolls sometimes triggers the team to come together and figure something out.

> I think anxiety in the virtual room is high and everyone just becomes paralyzed

I don't think that's necessarily anxiety. I'm sure there's a name for it, but it's a bit like the "bystander effect", where no one does anything because everyone expects someone else to deal with it. Something similar seems to happen in meetings with too many participants.

There can be some social anxiety in large groups depending on the audience too, I think. "if I say something and it's incorrect my boss is in this call" is a very different environment from a smaller chat.

I often see it just as overwhelm. Too many conflicting things happening at the same time, wanting attention, not knowing where to put it, and just kinda giving up.

Lately I've been seeing life as consistent conflicts, framing it as "emotional combat," and then ironically it calms me down, because I recognize that the one conflict in front of my face is not necessarily the one causing all the feelings I perceive in me or in other people.

Ooh, something in the same spirit as The Hacker's Diet (How to lose weight and hair through stress and poor nutrition)[1] which I legitimately used (well, kinda did some of) to lose about 20kg over the space of ~2 years, and then keep it off semi-indefinitely (I started in ~2010 and kept pretty steady since then, I've had a couple of times where I got up about 5kg from my target but it's not too hard to fix at that point.)

[1] https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/

There was someone that framed it like "Emotional API" but I can't remember who the guy was, and searching that on the internet now brings up a lot of AI stuff.

Your post inspires me to think of how to package some of my work of emotional conflict and health for engineers. If you're curious to talk more about it, I'd love to chat here or you can send me an email to the address in my bio.

>Please seek out help if you are struggling.

Even that process isn't easy. I've struggled with depression and anxiety most of my adult life, and only recently learned that ADHD is a major part of it. Just getting to this point (40+) has been an incredible struggle. Even when you're in the system, it feels like you have to do a lot of the work yourself, which can be impossibly hard. So hard in fact, that you some times wonder if it's even worth it. I'm in a pretty good place now, but it also feels like I still have a long way to go, because it turns out just getting ADHD meds doesn't really fix anything, and also brings with it new problems.

I guess it maybe sounds like I'm trying to dissuade people from getting help - I'm really not, but it's just the first step of an unknown amount of steps.

>'blue skies' and 'quiet mind' that can be achieved with proper treatment

I'm not there, but knowing that it's possible is what keeps me going.

There German word for that is Verantwortungsdiffusion (responsibility diffusion)

That's a good idea for a book and the parent commenter may indeed be a good person to write it, but subject experience is known to be a terrible source of information about psychology and mental health.

I'd opine that the amount of stress one is under could be similar to the anxiety+depression impact.

How is it difficult to get ADHD meds these days? Half the people I know are taking them, and (to hear them tell it) mostly they just described their self-diagnosed symptoms to a doctor or telehealh person and boom, script written.

I'd also say that any time you feel like you're in a "system," consider whether it's helping. I'm not sure what you mean here, but systems don't care. Systems don't exist to help you. Systems exist to take your money (or your insurance benefits), or just to perpetuate their own existence.

Sensory overload is one of the terms of practice

Not to ignore that the complex manifold of interlocking conflicting social rules can add further friction

You'd swear the process of getting diagnosed + treated for ADHD was deliberately designed to filter out anyone who actually has it. It's maddening.

I helped my girlfriend through the process a few years back, and it's so many phone calls, so many forms, she had to basically trick her mom into filling out some of the paperwork (long story, her mother is perfect and anything wrong with her child is a mark on her "record," it's frustrating) and even then, even once diagnosed, she was fired from a job for seeking accommodations under the ADA, and I swear every single month she has to take multiple calls from pharmacies and her fucking insurance company to reaffirm that yes, she does still need her damn medications.

Fortunately all that shit has kept her too busy to really wonder if RFK is going to send her a fucking farm or whatever.

I'm speaking from a danish perspective, and when speaking about the system, I'm referring to the danish health care system as well as (ChatGPT translated) The Danish sickness benefit scheme (it's all govt. run). Both have good and bad sides, but just to be able to talk to a psychiatrist, who must determine if I have it or not, I had to wait over two years. Getting ADHD meds is not easy at all - you can't just ask your GP.

And if you're sick, and unable to work, you will have to deal with The System whether you want to or not (unless you're fabulously wealthy, I guess). And as you mention, and as I've learned myself first hand, the benefits system is ineffective, uncaring, incompetent and occasionally malicious. It's so fantastically complicated, convoluted and bureaucratic, and exists to get sick people back to work, but accomplishes nothing of the sort. Largely a waste of taxpayer money, in my opinion. I could write a book about this shit.

The text https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Demystifying_Depression is in this vein.

Wow, thank you, that is very kind.

Something my wife and I decided very on in our journey into the space was to be as open as possible about it; both to help with distigmatjzation as well as just general knowledge sharing. I certainly knew nothing about mental health and illness until severe mental illness arrived on our doorstep and we had to get educated fast.

With 5% of the US population suffering from severe mental illness and another 20% having experienced an acute or less significant issue, it is quite common. The more we know, the more we can be helpful to those around us or ourselves.

I gave a 'co-learning' presentation on mental health to our company... maybe I should consider expanding the scope of my shared experience. Thanks for your encouragement.

Glad I could offer some hope / peace. It is truly remarkable the difference when one moves from deep depression to the lack of it.

> You'd swear the process of getting diagnosed + treated for ADHD was deliberately designed to filter out anyone who actually has it. It's maddening.

You aren't kidding... and the US's ridiculous controlled substance policies that mean people with it are forced to reach out to their doctor EACH MONTH for a new prescription. That feels like a sick joke for those who struggle to keep organized and focused... and often leads to lack of consistent treatment.

And not only the logistics and rememberings of that, but the money. Like I can't fathom trying to maintain consistent ADHD treatment if you're just broke as hell.

And not only that but being highly ADHD and needing ADHD treatment means you're more likely to be broke as hell!

I hear you. You are 100% correct, it is NOT easy... for a LOT of reasons. I hope you didn't feel like I was making light of it or implying that it was easy. it is not. Full stop.

Congrats on making it so far against such odds. That is a massive accomplishment. Day by day... use your amazing progress to help you motivate continued growth.

Hope is critical and I am glad I was able to provide a tiny bit for you. We are all different, so what has worked for some / many may not work for you. Frankly that was the hardest part of our journey, the 'unending' iterations. Hoping each would provide relief... waiting for weeks and months, only to move on to another cocktail.

On the flip side, there are a LOT of different treatments now and some very promising 'new' ones that are helping a lot of people.

It sounds like you have come a long way without much help or relief. I am glad it was helpful to know that relief is possible and that may help carry you forward just a little further.