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94 points JPLeRouzic | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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krunck ◴[] No.44380402[source]
The comment by Benjamin Stockton on the article page is spot-on:

>I just wonder if humanity’s adventurous nature is leading us away from a proper focus on the sustainability of our civilization, our specie, and our fragile planetary environment?

But we still need spaceflight at least for planetary defense against asteroids, mining asteroids(so we don't have to mine Earth), etc.

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sorcerer-mar ◴[] No.44380447[source]
What resources are on asteroids that justify the energy expenditure to get from space and back? Can't be many of them...
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JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.44380783[source]
> What resources are on asteroids that justify the energy expenditure to get from space and back?

With chemical rockets, not much.

With "a propellant-less propulsion propulsion system such as solar sails or electric sails," bringing water (propellant) to low-earth orbit starts making sense [1], as does mining platinum, but only if "the quantity of platinum from space would substitute an equal quantity of terrestrial platinum," i.e. moving heavy industry off the Earth's surface [1].

Given asteroid-mining profitability is dominated by "the throughput rate, which depends on the mining process," it's possibly to see a path to certain rare-earth minerals becoming profitable to mine in space if environmental controls on Earth are tightened while constant-thrust propulsion technologies advance.

[1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1810.03836

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pfdietz ◴[] No.44382314[source]
> With chemical rockets, not much.

The energy involved in chemical rocketry is actually not that much. Getting a kilogram to LEO is roughly as expensive (in energy) as flying it to the other side of the world in an airliner. Getting stuff back from an earth-crossing asteroid can also be very cheap energetically, with very small delta-V (if one is willing to wait long enough).

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sorcerer-mar ◴[] No.44382755[source]
But we don’t ship mined materials around via aircraft… because it’s obscenely expensive…
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pfdietz ◴[] No.44383307[source]
And the delta-V back from a NEO is as little as 1% of that to get to LEO from the Earth's surface.

Also, the materials we're talking about from asteroid mining, like platinum group elements, probably are shipped by air, just for security.

This whole argument is reminding me of the facile and bogus argument that launch to earth orbit from planet's surface is expensive because of the energy needed.

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sorcerer-mar ◴[] No.44383516[source]
If it's a bogus argument then mount a counterargument. The question is simple: what is worth mining in space?

So far we have... "maybe platinum." Maybe!

Aside from the conspicuous absence of math, "maybe platinum" isn't remotely important enough a factor in earthbound mining to justify asteroid mining on the basis of preserving earth, obviously.

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1. pfdietz ◴[] No.44383659{5}[source]
Look at those goalposts shift!

I don't need to argue things are practically mineable in space to rebut the point. I just need to argue if they aren't practically mineable, energy consumption isn't a reason.

I have already given you the counterargument.

> we have maybe platinum

Those making the energy argument need to rebut every possibility. The "it takes to much energy to ship back" is ludicrously wrong for platinum. The argument destroyed, why would we need to say more?

It takes as little as 0.1 km/s delta V to get onto an Earth-intersecting orbit from known NEOs. The energy of a mass moving at 100 m/s is 5x10^3 J/kg, or 1.4e-3 kWh. If a kWh costs $1 in space, this would be a fraction of a cent per kilogram. This delta-V is so small that the energy cost of sending back base metals would be affordable. Hell, the energy cost of shipping gravel from space would be affordable! Other costs, probably not, but that's not the claim we're addressing.

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2. sorcerer-mar ◴[] No.44386267[source]
You maybe forgot what thread you're in. Scroll up to the first comment I replied to to remind yourself of where the goalposts are. In fact in my very first comment I mentioned there "can't be many!," and indeed there are not. We have "maybe platinum if we can just drop it into the atmosphere with no reentry vehicles or if we can autonomously build reentry vehicles using material we find in space."

So far that's the best answer, so thanks for providing it.

You may also find in your scrolling that I did not say "it takes too much energy to ship back." I said "What resources are on asteroids that justify the energy expenditure to get from space and back?"

Obviously getting down is not the expensive part. We've all heard of gravity. Getting the equipment up that is needed to get stuff down is. This is also due to gravity.

I'm afraid you misread my first comment and responded as if I thought it was energy expensive to drop stuff onto earth.