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Fun with uv and PEP 723

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618 points deepakjois | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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ACAVJW4H ◴[] No.44370555[source]
finally feels like Python scripts can Just Work™ without a virtualenv scavenger hunt.

Now if only someone could do the same for shell scripts. Packaging, dependency management, and reproducibility in shell land are still stuck in the Stone Ages. Right now it’s still curl | bash and hope for the best, or a README with 12 manual steps and three missing dependencies.

Sure, there’s Nix... if you’ve already transcended time, space, and the Nix manual. Docker? Great, if downloading a Linux distro to run sed sounds reasonable.

There’s got to be a middle ground simple, declarative, and built for humans.

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bigstrat2003 ◴[] No.44370667[source]
> Packaging, dependency management, and reproducibility in shell land are still stuck in the Stone Ages.

IMO it should stay that way, because any script that needs those things is way past the point where shell is a reasonable choice. Shell scripts should be small, 20 lines or so. The language just plain sucks too much to make it worth using for anything bigger.

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xavdid ◴[] No.44374216[source]
My rule of thumb is that as soon as I write a conditional, it's time to upgrade bash to Python/Node/etc. I shouldn't have to search for the nuances of `if` statements every time I need to write them.
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pxc ◴[] No.44380173[source]
What nuances are there to if statements, exactly?

An if statement in, for instance bash, just runs any command and then runs one of two blocks of code based on the exit status of that command. If the exit status is truthy, it runs what follows the `then`. If it's falsey, it rhns what follows the `else`. (`elsif` is admittedly gratuitous syntax— it would be better if it were just implemented as an if inside an else statement.) This seems quite similar to other programming languages and like not very much to remember.

I'll admit that one thing I do in my shell scripts is avoid "fake syntax"— I never use `[` or `[[` because these obscure the real structure of the statements for the sake of cuteness. I just write `test`, which makes clear that it's just an ordinary command, ans also signals to someone who isn't sure what it's doing that they can find out just by running `man test`, `help test`, `info test`, etc., from the same shell.

I also agree that if statements and if expressions should be kept few and simple. But in some ways it's actually easier to do this in shell languages than in many others! Chaining && and/or || can often get you through a substantial script without any if statements at all, let alone nested ones.

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1. xavdid ◴[] No.44382934[source]
I mean, there are 3 equally valid ways to write an if statement: `test`, `[`, and `[[`. In the case of the latter two, there are a mess of single-letter flags to test things about a file or condition[0]. I'm not sure what makes them "fake syntax", but I also don't know that much about bash.

It's all reasonable enough if you go and look it up, but the script immediately becomes harder to reason about. Conditionals shouldn't be this hard.

[0]: https://tldp.org/LDP/Bash-Beginners-Guide/html/sect_07_01.ht...

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2. pxc ◴[] No.44383927[source]
You don't need any of those to write an if statement. I frequently write if statements like this one

    if ! grep -qF something /etc/some/config/file 2>/dev/null; then
      do_something
    fi
The `test` command is there if you want to use it, but it's just another command.

In the case of Bash, `test` is a built-in command rather than an external program, and it also has two other names, `[` and `[[`. I don't like the latter two because they look, to a naive reader, like special syntax built into the shell— like something the parser sees as unique and different and bear a special relationship to if-statements— but they aren't and they don't. And in fact you can use them in other shells that don't have them as built-ins, if you implement them as external commands. (You can probably find a binary called `[` on your system right now.)

(Actually, it looks like `[[` is even worse than "fake syntax"... it's real special syntax. It changes how Bash interprets `&&` and `||`. Yikes.)

But if you don't like `test`, you don't have to use it; you can use any command you like!

For instance, you might use `expr`:

  if expr "1 > 0"; then
    echo this will always run
  else
    echo this will never run
  fi
Fish has some built-ins that fall into a similar niche that are handy for simple comparisons like this, namely `math` and `string`, but there are probably others.

If you really don't like `test`, don't even need to use it for checking the existence or type (dir, symlink, socket, etc.) of files! You can use GNU `find` for that, or even sharkdp's `fd` if you ache for something new and shiny.

Fish actually has something really nice here in the `path` built-in, which includes long options like you and I both wish `test` had. You can write:

  if path -q --type=dir a/b/c
    touch a/b/c/some-file
  end
You don't need `test` for asking about or asserting equality of variables, either;

  grep -qxF "$A" <<< "$B"
is equivalent to

  test "A" = "$B"
or with the Fish `string` built-in

  string match --entire $A $B
The key is that in a shell, all commands are truthy in terms of their exit status. `&&` and `||` let you combine those exit statuses in exactly the way you'd expect, as do the (imo much more elegant) `and` and `or` combiner commands in Fish.

Finally, there's no need to use the likes of `test` for combining conditions. I certainly never do. You can just write

  test "$A" = "$B" && test "$C" = "$D"
instead of something like

  [ "$A" = "$B" -a "$C" = "$D" ]


If-statements in shell languages are so simple that there's practically nothing to them. They just take a single command (any!) and branch based on its exit status! That's it.

As for readability: any program in any language is difficult to understand if you don't know the interfaces or behaviors of the functions it invokes. `[`/`test` is no different from any such function, although it appears that `[[` is something weirder and, imo, worse.