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596 points robinhouston | 49 comments | | HN request time: 1.927s | source | bottom
1. ChuckMcM ◴[] No.44381861[source]
Worst D-4 ever! But more seriously, I wonder how closely you could get to an non-uniform mass polyhedra which had 'knife edge' type balance. Which is to say;

1) Construct a polyhedra with uneven weight distribution which is stable on exactly two faces.

2) Make one of those faces much more stable than the other, so if it is on the limited stability face and disturbed, it will switch to the high stability face.

A structure like that would be useful as a tamper detector.

replies(12): >>44382132 #>>44382239 #>>44382240 #>>44382291 #>>44382682 #>>44382693 #>>44382719 #>>44382821 #>>44384580 #>>44384845 #>>44385378 #>>44387476 #
2. Evidlo ◴[] No.44382132[source]
> A structure like that would be useful as a tamper detector.

Why does it need to be a polyhedron?

replies(1): >>44382207 #
3. ChuckMcM ◴[] No.44382207[source]
I was thinking exactly two stable states. Presumably you could have a sphere with the light end and heavy end having flats on them which might work as well. The tamper requirement I've worked with in the past needs strong guarantees about exactly two states[1] "not tampered" and "tampered". In any situation you'd need to ensure that the transition from one state to the other was always possible.

That was where my mind went when thinking about the article.

[1] The spec in question specifically did not allow for the situation of being in one state, and not being in that one state as the two states. Which had to do about traceability.

4. cbsks ◴[] No.44382240[source]
The keyword is "mono-monostatic", and the Gömböc is an example of a non-polyhedra one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6mb%C3%B6c

Here's a 21 sided mono-monostatic polyhedra: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.13727v2

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5. ortusdux ◴[] No.44382291[source]
You jest, but I knew a DND player with a dice addicting that loved showing off his D-1 Mobius strip dice - https://www.awesomedice.com/products/awd101?variant=45578687...

For some reason he did not like my suggestion that he get a #1 billard ball.

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6. ChuckMcM ◴[] No.44382553[source]
Okay, I love this so much :-). Thanks for that.
7. gerdesj ◴[] No.44382580[source]
Love it - any sphere will do.

A ping pong ball would be great - the DM/GM could throw it at a player for effect without braining them!

(billiard)

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8. hammock ◴[] No.44382631{3}[source]
Or any mobius strip
replies(1): >>44382819 #
9. ◴[] No.44382682[source]
10. ◴[] No.44382693[source]
11. gus_massa ◴[] No.44382719[source]
A solid tall cone is quite similar to what you want. I guess it can be tweaked to get a polyhedra.
replies(2): >>44382827 #>>44383158 #
12. gerdesj ◴[] No.44382819{4}[source]
I think a spherical D1 is far more interesting than a Möbius strip in this case.

Dn: after the Platonic solids, Dn generally has triangular facets and as n increases, the shape of the die tends towards a sphere made up of smaller and smaller triangular faces. A D20 is an icosahedron. I'm sure I remember a D30 and a D100.

However, in the limit, as the faces tend to zero in area, you end up with a D1. Now do you get a D infinity just before a D1, when the limit is nearly but not quite reached or just a multi faceted thing with a lot of countable faces?

replies(1): >>44383722 #
13. jayd16 ◴[] No.44382821[source]
I imagine a dowel that is easily tipped over fits your description but I must be missing something.
14. MPSimmons ◴[] No.44382824[source]
I've always seen a D1 as a bingo ball...
replies(1): >>44383672 #
15. MPSimmons ◴[] No.44382827[source]
A weeble-wobble
16. thaumasiotes ◴[] No.44382917{3}[source]
> the DM/GM could throw it at a player for effect without braining them!

If you're prepared to run over to wherever it ended up after that, sure.

I learned to juggle with ping pong balls. Their extreme lightness isn't an advantage. One of the most common problems you have when learning to juggle is that two balls will collide. When that happens with ping pong balls, they'll fly right across the room.

17. thaumasiotes ◴[] No.44382932{3}[source]
> Love it - any sphere will do.

That's basically what the link shows. A Möbius strip is interesting in that it is a two-dimensional surface with one side. But the product is three-dimensional, and has rounded edges. By that standard, any other die is also a d1. The surface of an ordinary d6 has two sides - but all six faces that you read from are on the same one of them.

18. robocat ◴[] No.44382950[source]
That's like saying a donut only has one side.

The linked die seems similar to this: https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/game/d1-one-sided-die which seems adjacent to a Möbius strip but kinda isn't because the loop is not made of a two sided flat strip. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6bius_strip

Might be an Umbilic torus: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbilic_torus

The word side is unclear.

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19. ChuckMcM ◴[] No.44383158[source]
So a cone sitting on its circular base is maximally stable, what position do you put the cone into that is both stable, and if it gets disturbed, even slightly, it reverts to sitting on its base?
replies(1): >>44384271 #
20. ofalkaed ◴[] No.44383672{3}[source]
You sunk my battleship!
21. cubefox ◴[] No.44383700{3}[source]
A sphere is bad, it rolls away. The shape from the article would be better, but it is too hard to manufacture. And weighting is cheating anyway. The best option for a D1 is probably the gömböc, which is mentioned in the article.
replies(1): >>44383949 #
22. jacquesm ◴[] No.44383719[source]
Earthquake detector?
23. zoky ◴[] No.44383722{5}[source]
> However, in the limit, as the faces tend to zero in area, you end up with a D1.

Not really. You end up with a D-infinity, i.e. a sphere. A theoretical sphere thrown randomly onto a plane is going to end up with one single point, or face, touching the plane, and the point or face directly opposite that pointing up. Since in the real world we are incapable of distinguishing between infinitesimally small points, we might just declare them all to be part of the same single face, but from a mathematical perspective a collection of infinitely many points that are all equidistant from a central point in 3-dimensional space is a sphere.

24. shalmanese ◴[] No.44383949{4}[source]
Technically, a gomboc is a D1.00…001.
replies(1): >>44384194 #
25. cubefox ◴[] No.44384194{5}[source]
Any normal die could also land on an edge.
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26. iainmerrick ◴[] No.44384271{3}[source]
I think you’re overthinking it. The tamper mechanism being proposed is just a thin straight stick standing on its end. Disturb it, it falls over.
27. schiffern ◴[] No.44384580[source]

  >useful as a tamper detector
If anyone's actually looking for this, check out tilt and shock indicators made for fragile packages.

https://www.uline.com/Cls_10/Damage-Indicators

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9hHHt-S9kY

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28. ErigmolCt ◴[] No.44384845[source]
Sort of like a mechanical binary state that passively "remembers" if it's been jostled
29. p0w3n3d ◴[] No.44385003[source]
These shock watches and tilt watchers are quite expensive. I wonder how much must be the package worth to be feasible to use this kind of protection
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30. growse ◴[] No.44385094{3}[source]
Everyone knows that a donut has two sides.

Inside, and outside.

31. bigDinosaur ◴[] No.44385100{3}[source]
It may not just be monetary value. Shipping something that could be ruined by being thrown around (e.g. IIRC there were issues with covid-19 vaccine suspensions and sudden shocks ruining it) that just won't work may need this indicator even if the actual monetary value is otherwise low.
32. Someone ◴[] No.44385158{3}[source]
Did you notice the column indicating number of items per box/carton?

Shockwatch is $170 for 50 items, for example, and the label $75 for 200.

Not dirt cheap, but I guess that’s because of the size of the market.

33. lloeki ◴[] No.44385232[source]
There's a link to a D2, where prior to clicking I was thinking "well that's a coin, right?" until I realised a coin is technically a (very biased) D3.
replies(1): >>44385570 #
34. lloeki ◴[] No.44385279{3}[source]
Nitpick: one of the properties of dice is that they stop on one side (i.e they converge towards stable rest on even ground) and the typical rule is that when they come at rest because of something other than even ground then the throw is invalid.

So while a sphere has only one side it basically never comes at a stable enough rest unless stopped by uneven ground (invalid throw), and if it stops because of friction it is unstable rest where the slightest nudge would make it roll again.

Therefore in a sense a sphere only works as a 1D because you know the outcome before throwing.

Edge cases are fun.

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35. tlb ◴[] No.44385378[source]
If you're not limited to a polyhedron, a thin rod standing on end does the job.

A rod would fall over with a big clatter and bounce a few times. I wonder if there's a bistable polyhedron where the transition would be smooth enough that it wouldn't bounce. The original gomboc seemed to have its CG change smoothly enough that it wouldn't bounce under normal gravity.

36. stavros ◴[] No.44385570{3}[source]
Huh, now I'm curious, what did the D2 look like?
replies(1): >>44385681 #
37. layer8 ◴[] No.44385610{4}[source]
Yes, it’s more like a D0.

It’s debatable though whether a sphere can constitute an edge case. ;)

38. layer8 ◴[] No.44385614{6}[source]
It’s infinitely unlikely to do so, a set of measure zero.
replies(1): >>44385683 #
39. riffraff ◴[] No.44385681{4}[source]
Lenticoidal, I guess? I.e. remove the outer face of the cilinder by making the faces curved
replies(1): >>44385703 #
40. cubefox ◴[] No.44385683{7}[source]
Just as with the gömböc. Though the latter balances on only one unstable axis while a D6 die does so on 20 (12 edges and 8 vertices).
replies(1): >>44387094 #
41. stavros ◴[] No.44385703{5}[source]
Yeah, that was my thought as well, but that's also basically a D3 with a really small third edge, in practice. I was wondering whether there's some clever shape that actually is a D2, though maybe that's a Möbius strip in reality.
replies(1): >>44385841 #
42. close04 ◴[] No.44385841{6}[source]
> with a really small third edge

Doesn't every die have a bunch of edges or even vertices that aren't considered faces despite having a measurable width? As long as it's realistically impossible to land on that edge, I think it shouldn't count as a face.

43. Y_Y ◴[] No.44387094{8}[source]
Vertices aren't axes! They have the wrong dimensionality.
replies(1): >>44388961 #
44. ◴[] No.44387476[source]
45. donw ◴[] No.44388146{3}[source]
Fun fact: MythBusters used shock watches extensively when testing anything involving impact, because they were massively more reliable than any of their digital instrument.
46. cubefox ◴[] No.44388961{9}[source]
Let's instead call the balance things in question "balance things".
47. nvalis ◴[] No.44389580[source]
If it's about intrusion detection of packaged goods lentils, beans or rice are very useful [0]. Cheap but great tamper detection.

[0]: https://dys2p.com/en/2021-12-tamper-evident-protection.html

48. eastbound ◴[] No.44390601{3}[source]
Problem is when transporting tilt watchers, you can’t tilt the package either.
49. numb7rs ◴[] No.44390679{3}[source]
These are pretty normal when shipping scientific equipment.