←back to thread

193 points leymed | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0.516s | source
Show context
AnotherGoodName ◴[] No.44360099[source]
Reads very similar to some blackouts we had in Australia. Weakly connected grids with vast geographical distances leading to oscillations that took down the grid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout

Completely solved with lithium based grid storage at key locations btw. This grid storage has also been massively profitable for it's owners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve#Revenu...

Australia currently has 4 of the 5 largest battery storage systems under construction as a result of this profit opportunity; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_energy_storage_system#...

You can also read numerous stories of how Australia's lithium ion grid storage systems have prevented blackouts in many cases. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-big-battery-south-australia-... The fact is that the batteries responsiveness is the fastest of any system at correcting gaps like this. 50/60hz is nothing for a lithium ion battery nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed.

There's even articles that if Europe investing in battery storage systems like Australia they'd have avoided this. https://reneweconomy.com.au/no-batteries-no-flexibility-spai...

replies(3): >>44360187 #>>44361587 #>>44363406 #
londons_explore ◴[] No.44360187[source]
> nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed.

Actually this is typically an issue for grid batteries.

Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies.

Stationary batteries inverters can't do 10x current spikes ever - the max they can get to is more like 1.2x for a few seconds.

That means you end up needing a lot of batteries to provide the same spinning reserve as one regular power station.

replies(6): >>44360272 #>>44360408 #>>44360936 #>>44361327 #>>44362342 #>>44364686 #
ajross ◴[] No.44360936[source]
That... doesn't sound correct. Inverters are the cheap part, you can literally wire as many as you want in parallel. Batteries have immense power availability, with most chemistries you can trivially deliver the entire capacity in half an hour or so (more like 5 minutes with lithium cells).

Basically I'm dubious. I'm sure there are grids somewhere that have misprovisioned their inverter capacity, but I don't buy that battery facilities are inherently unable to buffer spikes. Is there a cite I can read?

replies(4): >>44361006 #>>44361016 #>>44361174 #>>44363159 #
1. bob1029 ◴[] No.44363159[source]
> Inverters are the cheap part

The whole point with actual inertia is that you get a large multiple of your maximum capacity without any redundant parts or added system complexity.

Keeping around 10x+ more semiconductors than you need to cover a tiny fraction of operational scenarios is difficult economics.

A semiconductor device cannot be overloaded like a spinning generator or transmission infrastructure can. You cannot trade temperature and maintenance schedule for capacity in the same way. Semiconductors have far more brittle operating parameters.

replies(1): >>44365323 #
2. ajross ◴[] No.44365323[source]
> Keeping around 10x+ more semiconductors than you need to cover a tiny fraction of operational scenarios is difficult economics.

Not according to the prices I see. Digikey tells me I can switch a MW of power for about the price of a MBP. I ask again, is there a citation for this nonsense?