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193 points leymed | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.708s | source
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fuoqi ◴[] No.44359889[source]
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matsemann ◴[] No.44359974[source]
But the quote literally spells out it was market forces, not some instability in solar generation?

Your other comment probably got flagged because it started with a huge straw man and had multiple unwarranted jabs in it.

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fuoqi ◴[] No.44360082[source]
Temporary negative prices have been caused by the renewable generation which exceeded the grid demand at the time, which then evolved into the nasty feedback loop caused by the reaction of renewable generation to those conditions. You simply do not get such situation with traditional generation, it's the direct consequence of the intermittent nature of renewables and its high ratio in the total generation.

Also, have you read after the market part? Please watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G4ipM2qjfw if the last quote is gibberish to you. It discusses somewhat different issues, but the point still stands.

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floatrock ◴[] No.44361265[source]
So an incredibly cheap source of supply exceeded the demand, and the market rules and some trips caused cascading failures.

Why is the problem the cheap source of supply rather than the market rules and incentives that made everything act the way it did?

Your comment suggests move back to good ol' expensive fossil generation instead of looking at how to bring the market rules up to date with evolving technologies.

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fuoqi ◴[] No.44361873[source]
>Why is the problem the cheap source of supply rather than the market rules and incentives that made everything act the way it did?

I explicitly mentioned this line of argument in the GP. The problem is that renewables only sometimes cheap and plentiful and often not when we want it. Even without accounting for the politically-driven preferential treatment covered in the sibling comment, from the purely technical point of view intermittency above certain threshold wreaks havoc in the traditional grid architecture designed for the traditional easily controlled "rotating" generation. It becomes really hard to manage the grid with existing tools when you have too much of intermittent highly distributed generation and in the extreme it leads to collapses like this.

As I wrote, yes, you could upgrade the grid, increase transmission redundancy, add battery/pumped/flywheel storage, introduce "smart" tools to manage the grid, and do a plethora of other things to accommodate renewables. Hell, you could even migrate the grid to DC!

But the cost of doing it is substantial. It's effectively a form of externalities of renewable generation, which are not accounted for in naive "cheap" $/kW metrics. Properly accounting for those externalities and adding them to the cost of renewable generation is possible, but politically unappealing.

>Your comment suggests move back to good ol' expensive fossil generation instead of looking at how to bring the market rules up to date with evolving technologies.

No, I believe we should remove the politically motivated shoehorning of renewables at the cost of grid stability. There should be a limit on how much intermittent generation we can have depending on the preparedness of the grid and we should pay less for power from such sources, not guarantee purchase from them!

As you say, we should have proper incentives structure which accounts for various externalities (including CO2 emissions!). We need to remove the existing subsudies on renewables which made sense in the early days, but not now. Let the generation sources play at the even field.

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1. eldaisfish ◴[] No.44362299[source]
a couple of things to add to an excellent explanation.

I'm glad people are coming around to accepting that renewable energy has problems. We have some solutions to these problems but we do not have experience with them.

I agree entirely - the externalities of renewable energy are significant and are not paid for by the source of the problem - the renewable generators themselves.

Just as one example, what is the solution to an extended wind drought, say of a week or ten days? All the batteries in the world could not store enough energy for that.

A major challenge with renewable energy is that it is intermittent and variable but also unpredictable. it is impossible to predict wind speeds more than 24 or 36 hours out and even those predictions are often inaccurate. just building more wind turbines or solar panels won't cut it.

There is also the reluctance of grid operators to use the capacity available in renewable energy generators. The majority of wind turbines are capable of active and reactive power control but most grid operators either don't use this capacity or use it minimally.

A distribution connected wind turbine could do wonders for reactive power control but this is rarely done. More grid operators should pay for reactive power, like the UK is starting to do. This should also be sourced from EVs and small solar inverters.

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2. amluto ◴[] No.44362922[source]
> There is also the reluctance of grid operators to use the capacity available in renewable energy generators. The majority of wind turbines are capable of active and reactive power control but most grid operators either don't use this capacity or use it minimally.

I wonder how much is the near-complete inability for grid operators to communicate with smaller systems. My little solar inverter is capable of reactive power control over a respectable range of phase angles, and the grid operator has absolutely no ability to invoke this ability short of whatever formula the combination of PG&E, the various regulators, and the UL stuck into some standard for how small inverters are supposed to behave under various voltage and frequency conditions.

Never mind that inverters could also be fooled into thinking they’re islanded and therefore disconnect themselves if the grid frequency is too far out of range. This is usually designed to occur at above-nominal frequency, which is at least mostly not what happened in this event.

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3. eldaisfish ◴[] No.44366004[source]
grid operators can and do communicate with smaller systems - UK Power Networks is one example. If the number of devices is too large, the solution is a market, with aggregators taking on the challenge of quantity.

This is all very much possible and the tech to do it is relatively basic. Grid operators do not because the market rules were written by larger generators to favour those larger generators.