←back to thread

2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

(media.licdn.com)
193 points leymed | 4 comments | 23 Jun 25 18:34 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source
Show context
AnotherGoodName ◴[23 Jun 25 21:07 UTC] No.44360099[source]▶
Reads very similar to some blackouts we had in Australia. Weakly connected grids with vast geographical distances leading to oscillations that took down the grid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout

Completely solved with lithium based grid storage at key locations btw. This grid storage has also been massively profitable for it's owners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve#Revenu...

Australia currently has 4 of the 5 largest battery storage systems under construction as a result of this profit opportunity; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_energy_storage_system#...

You can also read numerous stories of how Australia's lithium ion grid storage systems have prevented blackouts in many cases. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-big-battery-south-australia-... The fact is that the batteries responsiveness is the fastest of any system at correcting gaps like this. 50/60hz is nothing for a lithium ion battery nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed.

There's even articles that if Europe investing in battery storage systems like Australia they'd have avoided this. https://reneweconomy.com.au/no-batteries-no-flexibility-spai...

replies(3): >>44360187 #>>44361587 #>>44363406 #
londons_explore ◴[23 Jun 25 21:14 UTC] No.44360187[source]▶
> nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed.

Actually this is typically an issue for grid batteries.

Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies.

Stationary batteries inverters can't do 10x current spikes ever - the max they can get to is more like 1.2x for a few seconds.

That means you end up needing a lot of batteries to provide the same spinning reserve as one regular power station.

replies(6): >>44360272 #>>44360408 #>>44360936 #>>44361327 #>>44362342 #>>44364686 #
giantg2 ◴[23 Jun 25 21:36 UTC] No.44360408[source]▶
Seems like pumped hydro offers a nice compromise.
replies(3): >>44360472 #>>44361197 #>>44361203 #
AnotherGoodName ◴[23 Jun 25 21:44 UTC] No.44360472[source]▶
Fwiw the hornsdale battery linked above cost AUD$172 million and can provide 2000MW of equivalent inertia. Link: https://www.energymagazine.com.au/sa-approves-world-first-ba...

That equivalent inertia can only be done for short periods but that's exactly what grids need in stability - there's generally no lack of total generation, just a need to jump in and smooth out spikes.

You can't build a dam for that price, nor could you do it in under 100 days from contract signing as that battery was built. Batteries are definitely the answer here. The 'more spinning mass' answers don't make sense since Australia literally solved the above problem in a much cheaper way already.

replies(1): >>44360644 #
giantg2 ◴[23 Jun 25 22:02 UTC] No.44360644[source]▶
You don't need to build a dam, you just need the pipes and pumps for an existing dam (or elevated natural basin).
replies(1): >>44361392 #
1. _carbyau_ ◴[23 Jun 25 23:47 UTC] No.44361392{3}[source]▶
I thought you needed two dams. One higher than the other. You pump water back and forth between the two to generate or capture energy.

Is it that common that dams are already existing in nearby-ish pairs with the sufficient height difference? And that we haven't done this already?

Doing this is good where we can. But it has geographical limitations. Batteries don't so much.

replies(2): >>44361565 #>>44361630 #
2. Rodeoclash ◴[24 Jun 25 00:16 UTC] No.44361565[source]▶
My layman's understanding is that most locations that are suitable for pumped storage already have pumped storage built on them.
replies(1): >>44361834 #
3. Polizeiposaune ◴[24 Jun 25 00:27 UTC] No.44361630[source]▶
You need two sufficiently large bodies of water close to each other at different elevations. You don't necessarily need two dams - for instance, the Ludington pumped storage plant adjacent to Lake Michigan uses the lake as the lower body.
4. MobiusHorizons ◴[24 Jun 25 00:57 UTC] No.44361834[source]▶
Yep, this is the issue. That and land cost. Also pumped hydro is most useful when you need very large capacity storage, whereas for preventing blackouts you need very high capacity fast generating to fix oscillations or to allow more generating capacity to come on line. They are basically acting as decoupling capacitors (except for AC) in this application.