Phoenix.new – Remote AI Runtime for Phoenix

Phoenix creator here. I'm happy to answer any questions about this! Also worth noting that phoenix.new is a global Elixir cluster that spans the planet. If you sign up in Australia, you get an IDE and agent placed in Sydney.

Amazing work.

Just a clarifying question since I'm confused by the branding use of "Phoenix.new" (since I associate "Phoenix" as a web framework for Elixir apps but this seems to be a lot more than that).

- Is "Phoenix.new" an IDE?

- Is "Phoenix.new" ... AI to help you create an app using the Phoenix web framework for Elixir?

- Does "Phoenix.new" require the app to be hosted/deployed on Fly.io? If that's the case, maybe a naming like "phoenix.flyio.new" would be better and extensible for any type of service Fly.io helps in deployment - Phoenix/Elixir being one)

- Is it all 3 above?

And how does this compare to Tidewave.ai (created as presumably you know, by Elixir creator)

Apologies if I'm possibility conflating topics here.

Yes all 3. It has been weird trying to position/brand this as we started out just going for full-stack Elixir/Phoenix and it became very clear this is already much bigger than a single stack. That said, we wanted to nail a single stack super well to start and the agent is tailored for vibe'd apps atm. I want to introduce a pair mode next for more leveled assistance without having to nag it.

You could absolutely treat phoenix.new as your full dev IDE environment, but I think about it less an IDE, and more a remote runtime where agents get work done that you pop into as needed. Or another way to think about it, the agent doesn't care or need the vscode IDE or xterm. They are purely conveniences for us meaty humans.

For me, something like this is the future of programming. Agents fiddling away and we pop in to see what's going on or work on things they aren't well suited for.

Tidewave is focused on improving your local dev experience while we sit on the infra/remote agent/codex/devin/jules side of the fence. Tidewave also has a MCP server which Phoenix.new could integrate with that runs inside your app itself.

> For me, something like this is the future of programming. Agents fiddling away and we pop in to see what's going on or work on things they aren't well suited for.

Honestly, this is depressing. Pop in from what? Our factory jobs?

I understand that we are slowly taking away our own jobs but I do not find it depressing. I do find it concerning since most people do not talk about this openly. We are not sure how we are restructure so many jobs. If we cannot find jobs, what is the financial future for a large number of people across the world. This needs more thinking, honest acceptance of the situation. It will happen, we should take a positive approach to finding a new future.

Read up on the Jevons Paradox

> In economics, the Jevons paradox (/ˈdʒɛvənz/; sometimes Jevons effect) occurs when technological advancements make a resource more efficient to use (thereby reducing the amount needed for a single application); however, as the cost of using the resource drops, if the price is highly elastic, this results in overall demand increasing, causing total resource consumption to rise. Governments have typically expected efficiency gains to lower resource consumption, rather than anticipating possible increases due to the Jevons paradox.[1]

I do think there will be some Jevons effect going on with this, but I think it's important to recognize that software development as a resource is different than something like coal. For example, if the average iPhone-only teenager can now suddenly start cranking out apps, that may ultimately increase demand for apps and there may be more code than ever getting "written," but there won't necesarily be a need for your CS-grad software engineer anymore, so we could still be fucked. Why would you pay a high salary for a SWE when your business teams can just generate whatever app they need without having to know anything about how it actually works?

I think the arguments about "AI isn't good enough to replace senior engineers" will hold true for a few years, but not much beyond that. Jevon's Paradox will probably hold true for software as a resource, but not for SWEs as a resource. In the coal scenario, imagine that coal gets super cheap to procure because we invent robots that can do it from alpha to omega. Coal demand may go up, but the job for the coal miner is toast, and unless that coal miner has ownership stake, they will be out on their ass.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox