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1087 points smartmic | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.62s | source
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titanomachy ◴[] No.44305194[source]
“Good debugger worth weight in shiny rocks, in fact also more”

I’ve spent time at small startups and on “elite” big tech teams, and I’m usually the only one on my team using a debugger. Almost everyone in the real world (at least in web tech) seems to do print statement debugging. I have tried and failed to get others interested in using my workflow.

I generally agree that it’s the best way to start understanding a system. Breaking on an interesting line of code during a test run and studying the call stack that got me there is infinitely easier than trying to run the code forwards in my head.

Young grugs: learning this skill is a minor superpower. Take the time to get it working on your codebase, if you can.

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geophile ◴[] No.44305628[source]
I am also in the camp that has very little use for debuggers.

A point that may be pedantic: I don't add (and then remove) "print" statements. I add logging code, that stays forever. For a major interface, I'll usually start with INFO level debugging, to document function entry/exit, with param values. I add more detailed logging as I start to use the system and find out what needs extra scrutiny. This approach is very easy to get started with and maintain, and provides powerful insight into problems as they arise.

I also put a lot of work into formatting log statements. I once worked on a distributed system, and getting the prefix of each log statement exactly right was very useful -- node id, pid, timestamp, all of it fixed width. I could download logs from across the cluster, sort, and have a single file that interleaved actions from across the cluster.

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hobs ◴[] No.44305698[source]
A log is very different than a debugger though, one tells you what happened, one shows you the entire state and doesn't make you assemble it in your head.
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demosthanos ◴[] No.44305705[source]
Your framing makes it sound like the log is worse in some way, but what the log gives you that the debugger makes you assemble in your head is a timeline of when things happen. Being able to see time is a pretty big benefit for most types of software.

I can always drop an entire state object into the log if I need it, but the only way for a debugger to approximate what a log can give me is for me to step through a bunch of break points and hold the time stream in my head.

The one place where a debugger is straight up better is if I know exactly which unit of code is failing and that unit has complicated logic that is worth stepping through line by line. That's what they were designed for, and they're very useful for that, but it's also not the most common kind of troubleshooting I run into.

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1. switchbak ◴[] No.44306116[source]
In the early 2000’s I whipped up a tool to convert log statements into visual swim lanes like the Chrome profiler does. That thing was a godsend for reasoning about complex parallelism.
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2. EFreethought ◴[] No.44306842[source]
Would you be willing to share this tool?
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3. switchbak ◴[] No.44371705[source]
Oh that's long lost to the trashbin of history. As I recall it was a combination of:

- Log4j + MDC's so we could get a timestamp and thread ID easily

- some python scripting

I can't remember if it was PDF or SVG, but I do remember having to choose something that would allow for huge graphs and lots of scrolling!

These days there's better options on github, but nice to see I was on a decent path.