←back to thread

461 points axelfontaine | 7 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
Show context
thih9 ◴[] No.44039085[source]
> will cost billions of euros, affect more than 9,200 km of track, and take decades

How is a change like this going to be implemented? E.g. are they going to mainly update some tracks everywhere (and have two systems running in parallel), or all tracks in selected areas (and have passengers change), or something else?

Was there a comparable large scale rail infrastructure change in some other country?

replies(13): >>44039096 #>>44039107 #>>44039111 #>>44039129 #>>44039186 #>>44039196 #>>44039199 #>>44039365 #>>44039376 #>>44039651 #>>44039668 #>>44039843 #>>44040066 #
andriamanitra ◴[] No.44039196[source]
Currently the leading plan is to build another narrower track alongside the existing ones (so the old trains can keep operating), but it is still in the planning phase. [1] I am not convinced this project is ever going to pay for itself. I feel like you could move cargo from one train to another somewhere near the border for quite a long time with the money it is going to take to convert the entire rail network. Finland is only connected to Sweden and Norway by land in the North so it's not really going to connect the Finnish rail network to Europe either (unless the Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel [2] gets built, but it does not seem likely at this time).

[1] https://yle.fi/a/74-20161793

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki%E2%80%93Tallinn_Tunne...

replies(3): >>44039360 #>>44039932 #>>44043672 #
pjc50 ◴[] No.44039360[source]
> I am not convinced this project is ever going to pay for itself.

The subtext is not economic: it's "in the event of being invaded by Russia, can we minimize the delays in moving NATO materiel by rail to the front while denying Russia equally easy access to the rails".

replies(2): >>44039545 #>>44039553 #
andriamanitra ◴[] No.44039553[source]
I understand that but it is still economic: I highly doubt fixing a minor delay in material movement is the most effective use of these billions.
replies(2): >>44039732 #>>44039756 #
lukan ◴[] No.44039756{3}[source]
It is not a minor delay and in case of war such a delay can easily cost billions.

And if there isn't a war, the benefits of a interconnected and integrated european railwail network are potentially huge. 300 km/h trains connecting Finnland with Spain with no delay or bumps? That would be something.

replies(2): >>44039821 #>>44046325 #
pjc50 ◴[] No.44039821{4}[source]
> 300 km/h trains connecting Finnland with Spain with no delay or bumps?

Bit tricky this: either you cross the Baltic by ferry and resume at Tallinn, or you have to go a long way round north from Helsinki and come down again through Sweden, across Oresund and through Denmark.

replies(2): >>44039833 #>>44039940 #
1. Akronymus ◴[] No.44039833{5}[source]
Couldn't they build something similar to the eurotunnel but with denmark and sweden?
replies(1): >>44039857 #
2. lukan ◴[] No.44039857[source]
There is a bridge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98resund_Bridge

And more tunnels are getting build.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_fixed_link

replies(2): >>44039868 #>>44046322 #
3. Akronymus ◴[] No.44039868[source]
Oh. I should've looked it up before making a statement on it. My apologies and thanks for the correction.
4. yencabulator ◴[] No.44046322[source]
That bridge is going to be incredibly easy to destroy, should a big enough country wish that. And it definitely isn't going to be rebuilt quickly enough to matter for a war.
replies(1): >>44046493 #
5. lukan ◴[] No.44046493{3}[source]
With nukes, you can destroy anything. Otherwise the kerch bridge is still standing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Bridge

replies(1): >>44046642 #
6. yencabulator ◴[] No.44046642{4}[source]
Russia does not want that bridge to fall. Ukraine likely does but wasn't able to execute (outside of artillery range by now, limited access to long-range missiles, utter lack of sea power in the area, failure to anticipate circumstances enough to take it out while they still had control over area). All other countries are trying to not get involved, including not selling Ukraine (many) long-distance high destructive power missiles.

I wouldn't generalize from that to "nobody could destroy a bridge".

replies(1): >>44049510 #
7. lukan ◴[] No.44049510{5}[source]
"I wouldn't generalize from that to "nobody could destroy a bridge".

Moving goalposts?

"That bridge is going to be incredibly easy to destroy"

Of course bridges can be destroyed. Also Ukraine would have succeded by now, if it really would have changed the war and justify the efforts.

(It doesn't anymore, since russia has the land train connections)

But it really ain't "incredibly easy", if that bridge is guarded. The failed attempts document as much - and Ukraine knows how to destroy things by now.