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648 points bradgessler | 29 comments | | HN request time: 1.047s | source | bottom
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abathologist ◴[] No.44010933[source]
I think we are going to be seeing a vast partitioning in society in the next months and years.

The process of forming expressions just is the process of conceptual and rational articulation (as per Brandom). Those who misunderstand this -- believing that concepts are ready made, then encoded and decoded from permutations of tokens, or, worse, who have no room to think of reasoning or conceptualization at all -- they will be automated away.

I don't mean that their jobs will be automated: I mean that they will cede sapience and resign to becoming robotic. A robot is just a "person whose work or activities are entirely mechanical" (https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=robot).

I'm afraid far too many are captive to the ideology of productionism (which is just a corollary of consumerism). Creative activity is not about content production. The aim of our creation is communication and mutual-transformation. Generation of digital artifacts may be useful for these purposes, but most uses seem to assume content production is the point, and that is a dark, sad, dead end.

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1. cameldrv ◴[] No.44012674[source]
I've personally noticed this as a big trend. For example, I had become more and more reliant on my GPS in the car. I've not really been the outer control loop of the vehicle. An automated system tells me what to do.

I recently got a running watch. It suggests workouts that will help me improve my speed (which honestly I don't even care about!). If you turn it on it will blare at you if you're going too fast or too slow.

When you use any social media, you're not really choosing what you're looking at. You just scroll and the site decides what you're going to look at next.

Anyhow recently I've been reducing my usage of these things, and it's made me feel much better. Even navigating the car without the GPS makes me feel much more engaged and alive.

Ultimately one of the core things that makes us human is making decisions for ourselves. When we cede this in the name of efficiency, we gain something but we also lose something.

Marshall Brain wrote an interesting short book about this called Manna.

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2. empiricus ◴[] No.44012854[source]
For GPS, I start by looking at the overall route, and compare with potential alternatives. Then during the driving the GPS just manages the local details, I still have some understanding and agency over where to go and how to get there.
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3. globular-toast ◴[] No.44012997[source]
For road navigation it might be worth seeing if your country has a proper system in place and learning how to use it. In the UK, for example, there is a simple "algorithm" to get you where you need to go. The signage is hierarchical starting from motorways and trunk routes and descending down to primary and secondary local routes. So to navigate anywhere you go via trunk routes and follow the signs to the nearest trunk destination beyond where you are trying to go. Then as you get closer you should start to see your actual destination appear on the signs as a primary route. Once you learn the system it's really quite possible to navigate by yourself anywhere.

The nice thing is you won't end up routed down some ridiculous difficult road just because the GPS says so and it calculated it would save 0.2 seconds if you were somehow going at the speed limit the whole way. Your brain includes a common sense module, and it's usually right.

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4. robrorcroptrer ◴[] No.44013022[source]
But then again you are relying on an information system to navigate.
5. huijzer ◴[] No.44013190[source]
> When you use any social media, you're not really choosing what you're looking at. You just scroll and the site decides what you're going to look at next.

Yeah it’s crazy. I used to have a commonly held believe until last week. Then I started watching more videos in the opposite viewpoint and boom now my whole YT feed is full of it. I wish the feed would have sprinkled some opposing sides into the mix before last week. (Having said that I am appreciating individual content creator much more since people like Lex can decide to show both sides independent from some algorithm.)

6. boppo1 ◴[] No.44013219[source]
>When you use any social media, you're not really choosing what you're looking at. You just scroll and the site decides what you're going to look at next.

Not necessarily. I'm into a very particular sort of painting and I have been totalitarian with Instagram about showing me that content and not other stuff. It works splendidly as long as I'm consistent.

Thanks to Instagram, I have been introduced to tons of painters I would not have been otherwise.

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7. bonoboTP ◴[] No.44013249[source]
> When you use any social media, you're not really choosing what you're looking at. You just scroll and the site decides what you're going to look at next.

This was even more true with TV, and especially before there were a million cable channels.

And it makes me think about the even wider time scale. A few generations ago, "the outer control loop" was also not in the individual's hand, but instead of computers, it was built on social technology. The average person didn't have much to decide about their lives. They likely lived within a few (or few dozen) km of where their ancestors did, in the part of town and a type of home fitting for their social class, likely doing the same job as their father, following a rigid life script, hitting predefined ritualized milestones. Their diet was based on whatever was available at that time of the year based on local production, cooked essentially the same way, as handed down by mothers and grandmothers. There was very little to the tune of letting their inner true self blossom through taking fun colorful decisions. They couldn't choose from some endless repository of stories. It was mostly a rotation of the local folk stories and the stories of the dominant religion.

Just wanting to "consume" and follow a script without the weight of decision making isn't some modern "disease".

The key difference is a new kind of fragmentation of culture (and the non-local nature of it). A long time ago, culture was also fractally fragmented, in a way where "neighboring" villages in a mountainous area would have their own dialects. Then with long-distance travel and electronic communication and media, globalization happened where distant parts of the world started to sync up and converge on some shared part of culture (of course fused with a continuation of the local one), everyone wearing T-shirts, listening to Michael Jackson and rooting for their football/soccer team. If you were dropped to some random place on the planet, you could likely converse with them about some fairly recent cultural cornerstones in entertainment and basic global news topics. But you still likely weren't "dropped" there.

Then the internet appeared and you could suddenly talk to all those people in other parts of the world (or just other parts of your country). But search and discoverability weren't so great so there was friction. You build communities around shared interests and compatibility of personality and it required effort and participation. Usenet, forums, IRC. But these isolate you from your neighbors and local connections. And people often explicitly wanted that. Nosy neighbors and know-it-all gossipy townfolk weren't such a rosy thing, people wanted to escape that to find peers who understand and validate them and can build a shared culture with.

In schools, subcultures already existed from the 70s and 80s onwards for sure, but they were few, like maybe 2 main camps or 3 or so, and information flow was slow therefore change was slow. Some new album of a popular band was released, then it was the thing for a long time, you didn't get an endless stream shoved in your face, you got the album and listened to it over and over. Today subcultures can't even be meaningfully counted because people follow personalized streams and come together in random configuration in streamer chats etc.

So basically, in the old internet model, there were lots of opportunities to choose from, but it needed effort to find it and to forge belonging. Then with more commercialization, things started to consolidate on fewer platforms. It made it easier for creators to reach a wider pool of users simultaneously, and made it simpler for users to just learn to use one or a few platforms. But this made it also easier to pick and choose your "content diet", buffet style. A little from here, a little from there, with little friction. But with so much on offer, how do you choose? Discoverability was still an issue until recommendation algorithms became strong enough to know what will drive engagement. Turn that up to 11 and you get the current day where even the front page grid of options is obsolete and you get a single linear feed again, which is like watching TV and channel surfing (pressing the "next channel" button over and over), except it's personalized and never boring.

Of course this applies to many other things as well, such as dating apps etc, which also feed you an algorithmic stream of options with the goal of maximizing profits for the company.

I don't think individual people's rejection of the trend due to "makes me feel much better" will make a dent. In many cases the use of these things isn't mere convenience but implicitly mandatory because other things are designed around the assumption that people use them. Schools announcing stuff to parents in Facebook groups. There's less traffic report announcements on the radio, because people use Waze and Google Maps that has real time traffic info and reroutes you automatically.

---

But then what might happen? I think we're seeing glimpses of it in the rejection of AI in certain circles of cultural thought leaders, which might grow towards a rejection of more tech. But instead of "makes me feel better", the only actually working mechanism will be social shame, similar to what often appears nowadays when some product turns out to have used AI. If it becomes established that you're obviously a loser if you Shazaam a song, or open TikTok, it could flip. Of course companies won't sit by watching idle. What's more likely is that the "rejection" of tech will just lead to other levels of meta-grift and engagement optimization. It may just fizzle out in a whimper of angry malaise and meta-ironic apathy.

8. bonoboTP ◴[] No.44013286[source]
Is it better to be introduced to tons of painters vs fewer but in more detail? Or being told about a painter by someone in person vs by an algorithm?

In the 90s you only had certain songs if you knew someone who had it on cassette and you borrowed it and put it on your mixtape. Throughout the interaction, you also got initiated deeper into the culture of that thing in person.

I also notice that families rarely sit together nowadays to look through vacation photos. The pictures are taken, but people either don't have time to sort them and curate them. When film had a price, you only took fewer ones but it was more intentional. Then the fact that you only saw the picture once you were back at home, generated excitement that you could share and relive candid moments. Now people upload stuff on Instagram but it's intended to a generic audience, much unlike browsing through an album on the couch.

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9. vidar ◴[] No.44013335[source]
I applaud your consistency and effort to curatr your feed which is certainly technibally possible but i am quite sure you are the exception to the rule.
10. throwaway2037 ◴[] No.44013487[source]

    > I'm into a very particular sort of painting
Can you share some of your favourites that you follow? This sounds interesting.
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11. throwaway2037 ◴[] No.44013498{3}[source]

    > In the 90s you only had certain songs if you knew someone who had it on cassette and you borrowed it and put it on your mixtape.
I knew lots of people who recorded 120 Minutes on MTV and listened to college radio.
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12. bonoboTP ◴[] No.44013554{4}[source]
I meant the niche long tail stuff, since the commenter mentioned "tons of painters I would not have been otherwise". The equivalent in music would not be on MTV.
13. js8 ◴[] No.44013720[source]
Another example is free market ideology. This was a question I posed to libertarians - how can you claim that free market enhances human freedom, when it always tells you what to do in the name of efficiency?
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14. BeFlatXIII ◴[] No.44013840[source]
The big benefits I find about modern satnav have little to do with route planning. That can be done with maps and dead reckoning. Where it shines are

1. Having knowledge that cannot be acquired ahead of time, such as traffic conditions

2. Providing a countdown timer until my next turn

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15. norome ◴[] No.44013900[source]
I don't think the claim is that it enhances human freedom necessarily, rather: by giving more freedom to i.e. set prices than people will use their particular knowledge of their area of concern to set those prices correctly.

It does coincidentally align with John Stuart Mill's reasoning for why Liberty is fundamentally necessary: that only at the level of the individual is it possible to know what is good and right for that individual.

16. immibis ◴[] No.44013921[source]
I start by looking at the map. I go in the direction of the place I want to be. If I want to know the technically fastest route then I let my device calculate that. I don't always take that route. It's an assistant, not a boss. It's more interesting to walk down different streets sometimes. (And while I'm preaching to Americans, it's also good to walk down streets sometimes. It breaks away a few layers of abstraction that you have when driving.)

Looking at the map actually helps you learn the city layout. As of right now (literally as I'm typing this) the train was delayed, so I chose to get off at the next big station before everyone crowds on, and walk the rest of the way. I can do this without checking a map because I know where it is and where I am, because I don't let the machine think for me.

I don't drive (non-car-worshipping cities are amazing) but I do this when walking and also with train routes. I don't memorize the bus routes, since the train is better and has fewer routes, so I also sometimes ask my device for a route if I think there's a faster bus route than train (usually not the case).

17. bsenftner ◴[] No.44014206[source]
More people need to read Marshall Brain's book "Manna"; the main character's thoughts examine and put to bed the majority of the sophomore thinking surrounding AI and it's impacts on civilization. Plus, it is one of the rare balanced views with both very positive and very negative outcomes simultaneously coexisting.
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18. bsenftner ◴[] No.44014210[source]
https://marshallbrain.com/manna1
19. bartread ◴[] No.44014362[source]
> I've not really been the outer control loop of the vehicle. An automated system tells me what to do.

That’s not really true, is it? Who tells the GPS where you’d like to go? You, I imagine. You don’t just follow GPS instructions unless you’ve first told it where you’d like to go. And, indeed, unless you tell it, it won’t give you any instructions (though it might suggest common destinations for you to choose from).

You are still the outer control loop of the vehicle: you’re just thinking at the wrong level of abstraction, or thinking of the wrong loop as the outer loop.

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20. guythedudebro ◴[] No.44014417{3}[source]
Furries
21. tsumnia ◴[] No.44014435{3}[source]
> Then the fact that you only saw the picture once you were back at home, generated excitement that you could share and relive candid moments

Or you do like me and go see Interstellar 5 times in IMAX because the story was so good

22. nthingtohide ◴[] No.44014933[source]
I think this is nothing but how applied science realtime feedback loops should work. Earlier we used to study only planets, atoms and bacteria, now systems are studying us and guiding us to best outcomes.
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23. liugongqx ◴[] No.44015218[source]
I am obseesed comparing different routes from GPS for EACH trip. Long or short. Bragging to my wife how much time I saved.

She doesn't use GPS. Guess what, she alwayes beats me.

My Guess: 1. Algorithem does not favor me 2. Monitor GPS adds unsensible distraction and pressure which reduces action smoothness compare to brain driven actions.

24. ajuc ◴[] No.44015917[source]
It's not a loop. It's the main() function.

The loop is driven by the system and that makes a lot of difference.

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25. abathologist ◴[] No.44016752[source]
The surrender is largely voluntary, and is especially enabled by those who think "the systems" somehow know the "best outcomes".
26. bartread ◴[] No.44017171{3}[source]
> It's not a loop. It's the main() function.

No it isn't. I regularly use my car to travel to multiple destinations in a single "session".

The reason I use GPS is because the apps built on top of it often know about traffic issues along the way - even those that have recently developed - as well as normal patterns of traffic flow of which I may not be aware, or may only have a tenuous grasp of (and don't want to waste a lot of time studying).

But be in no doubt, when the machine creates a route for me it is very much doing what I tell it to do, not the other way around. I am in control at all times and will sometimes deviate from the prescribed route or choose a different destination along the way (e.g., if I've forgotten an errand I need to run that I remember and which could be conveniently achieved).

I just don't buy this argument that the car or the GPS system is the one in control, because it's simply not the case.

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27. cameldrv ◴[] No.44018961[source]
Yes. Clearly these systems are smart enough to know what the best outcomes are, and also they are the ones that lead to the maximum ad revenue for the site.
28. cameldrv ◴[] No.44018969[source]
This is the paradox. The computer knows the best route, better than you do, most of the time. But, you are not in control anymore. You are not the one making the decisions, figuring out where the turn is, and whether you want to turn there or at the next intersection. All I can say is, try leaving your phone at home for a day and get where you're going without it. You'll probably get there a few minutes later, but it will feel completely different.
29. ajuc ◴[] No.44019987{4}[source]
You are calling the main function with arguments "New York, Chicago, Washington". Then the system runs the loop and you are just an effector managed by the system.

Running the loop takes hours. Choosing the arguments for the main function takes seconds.

Which means for vast majority of time you delegate decision-making to the system. Which means your decision-making circuits atrophy. This is the problem people are talking about.