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Java at 30: Interview with James Gosling

(thenewstack.io)
225 points chhum | 3 comments | 16 May 25 13:05 UTC | HN request time: 0.432s | source
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toprerules ◴[16 May 25 15:38 UTC] No.44006750[source]▶
I admire Java as a success story, but I still have a deeply ingrained aversion to it for many reasons. I will admit that many of the reasons are due to Java's legacy as the language of bloated corporations, and its creation of overly verbose, magic fueled frameworks and poorly written code. Java as a language goes hand in hand with the idea that code is coal to be shoveled into the furnace, and we should all throw our aspirations away and embrace mediocrity.

My other issues with the JVM is how much of a black box it is from a platform perspective, which makes debugging a PITA with standard ops tools like strace, gdb, etc. The JVM's over allocation of memory robs the kernel of real insight as to how the workload is actually performing. When you use the JVM, you are completely locked in and god help you if there isn't a JVM expert to debug your thing and unravel how it translates to a platform implementation.

Then of course there's the weird licensing, it's association with Oracle, managing JDK versions, it's lack of it factor in 2025, and a huge boatload of legacy holding it back (which is not unique to Java).

I have successfully navigated my career with minimal exposure to Java, and nowadays there's a glut of highly performant languages with GC that support minimal runtimes, static compilation, and just look like regular binaries such that the problems solved by something like the Java or Python VMs just aren't as relevant anymore - they just add operational complexity.

To reiterate, I admire JG just like any tech person should. Java's success is clear and apparent, but I'm glad I don't have to use it.

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jjav ◴[17 May 25 00:57 UTC] No.44011196[source]▶
> My other issues with the JVM is how much of a black box it is from a platform perspective, which makes debugging a PITA

You state how you don't really use java, but the above confirms it.

Java debugging and diagnostic tooling is second to none.

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1. toprerules ◴[17 May 25 01:10 UTC] No.44011257[source]▶
That's a really narrow view of the world, and I think another Javaism to think that Java is the entire world. Today's multi-service deployments run tens if not hundreds of auxiliary processes not using Java. They use network overlays that change how processes interact with the network core. A person who is debugging a knock on effect issues has to be able to look through many different layers of processes, many of which are written in C, C++, Go, etc. Having to learn an entire toolset to debug Python or Java is a huge burden and it makes introspection extremely difficult. Java essentially wants to be the entire platform, which isn't how the world works anymore.
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2. vips7L ◴[17 May 25 02:31 UTC] No.44011596[source]▶
Don't you think a narrow view of the world is this idea that you should be able to use one tool to debug everything? It seems like you want GDB (and the unix's where it runs) to be the entire platform.
3. jjav ◴[17 May 25 04:35 UTC] No.44012064[source]▶
When you need to debug across the entire system and into the kernel, I'd use dtrace which has had java stack frame support since... I don't remember anymore, but closing in on 20 years.