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The Awful German Language (1880)

(faculty.georgetown.edu)
186 points nalinidash | 1 comments | 16 May 25 04:09 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source
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ycuser2 ◴[16 May 25 04:37 UTC] No.44001883[source]▶
"Tomcat" is male in German, not female: Der Kater.

"Wife" is female in German, not neutral: Die Ehefrau. "Weib" is old language and rude to use these days.

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DocTomoe ◴[16 May 25 04:43 UTC] No.44001908[source]▶
Consider that the text is, in fact, from the 19th century.

Also, 'Weib' is not rude in every context. "Wein, Weib und Gesang" is not diminutive towards women, but in fact appreciative (as in 'necessary for having a good time'). We have Weiberfassnacht. And then there are the dialects, in which "Weib" often is indicative of a homely, loving relationship (-> bairisch, Swabian). Context matters.

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Helmut10001 ◴[16 May 25 05:05 UTC] No.44001994[source]▶
Sorry to be picky, but "Wein, Weib und Gesang" is not neutral. It reduces "Weib" to the value of Wein and Gesang, something only needed for pleasure.
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ahofmann ◴[16 May 25 05:25 UTC] No.44002080[source]▶
You are applying logic and common sense from this century, to words of other centuries. This doesn't work, and never will. I think this is important, because a lot of people do this and nothing good comes out of it.
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watwut ◴[16 May 25 07:29 UTC] No.44002673{3}[source]▶
Are you claiming it was appreciative of women back then? It was expression about loud wild partying, the sort of that is annoying to everyone living on the same street as your beer pub is. The women who were present were not appreciated, they were look down at sort of tramps. A well behaved woman was not supposed to be present.

When you are casting it as appreciative of women because they are necessary for fun, you are applying modern idea that women present at a wild party says something positive about that woman. Back then, it suggested easy sexual availability and that was seen as a bad thing.

Edit: also in general, when people in the past were crass, other people in the past were offended over it. Even women themselves who accepted their role as god given would frequently get offended over hearing what they considered crass language. When women were supposed to be guardians of morality (and Germany had such periods), they would openly take issue with such statement. Because it was their expected role to be offended and to gently positively impact men (in a way that does not actually interfere with what he does).

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1. DocTomoe ◴[16 May 25 13:04 UTC] No.44005000{4}[source]▶
That saying comes from the "Sturm & Drang" age, the age of Goethe and Schiller, of the German Studentenschaft (basically 18th and 19th century patriotic fraternities). Yes, it is about partying. No, the women were not seen as tramps within that group, you are comparing 'polite society female standards' to a very different subculture. Do not fall into the trap to think that societies now or at any point in history were monolithic blocks of identical beliefs.

And we have plenty of literary evidence that the women in these young subcultures were not feeling being objectified either, such as:

Goethe (Werther, 1774): "The joy with which one sometimes unites with friends is also a very pleasant thing among women."

Also Mozart/Schikaneder (Zauberflöte, 1791): “A woman who does not fear night and death is worthy and will be initiated” - indicating they should be given access to (often occult) lodges, thus more than "entertainment", but an equal

Schiller (Intrigue and Love, 1784): “When reason bows, the heart opens.” (Schiller emphasizes the importance of feelings and passion, reflecting the era’s turn away from pure reason and strict morality, typical also of student life.)

Novalis’ (Hymns to the Night, 1799): "For woman is humanity’s mistress, And we give ourselves to serve her.”

Doesn't exactly sound like "Women are tramps unless they blush and faint at the idea of partying", does it?