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The Awful German Language (1880)

(faculty.georgetown.edu)
186 points nalinidash | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.499s | source
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bradley13 ◴[] No.44002276[source]
I can certainly confirm that learning German grammar as an adult is...challenging. Even though I am now fluent, learning as an adult means that you will always make mistakes on the gender of nouns. There are effectively four genders (male/neuter/female/plural), plus four cases (nominative/accusative/dative/genetive), so you have a 4x4 table giving you a choice of 16 articles that can appear in from of a noun. Only, the 16 articles are not unique: the table contains lots of duplicates in unexpected places.

Of course, most Western languages have gendered nouns - English is pretty unique in that respect. That likely comes from English being born as a pidgin of French and German.

Verbs in German are valuable things. You collect them, hold on to them as long as you can, and then - at the end of the sentence - they all come tumbling out. The order of the nouns at the end of the sentence differs by region. In purest German, they come out in reverse order, giving you a nice, context-free grammar. In Swiss dialects, they come out in the order they were conceived, meaning that the grammar is technically context sensitive. In Austrian dialects, the order can be a mix.

Of course, every language has its quirks. French, for example, puts extra letters on the ends of words that you are not supposed to pronounce. Well, unless the right two words are next to each other, in which case, you pronounce the letters after all.

English, meanwhile, gives learners fits, because the pronunciation has nothing whatsoever to do with spelling. Consider the letters "gh" in this sentence (thanks ChatGPT): "Though the tough man gave a sigh and a laugh at the ghost, he had a hiccough and coughed through the night by the slough, hoping to get enough rest."

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mytailorisrich ◴[] No.44002903[source]
> Of course, every language has its quirks. French, for example, puts extra letters on the ends of words that you are not supposed to pronounce. Well, unless the right two words are next to each other, in which case, you pronounce the letters after all.

A lot of this is to due with latin, which pronounciation evolved over time to give modern French but which origin is still kept in spelling. So it's not that the language "puts extra letters" it's that it kept old spelling when the pronunciation change.

An example: 'est' (to be, third person singular) is very obviously verbatim latin spelling but pronunciation has shifted so that the 't' is not pronounced (and arguably the 's' could go, too).

Sometimes there are useful "rules" about how spelling and pronunciations evolved, which can be useful for English speakers writing in French, too, to remember your accents:

hospital -> hôpital

hostel -> hôtel

castel (castle in English) -> château

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johannes1234321 ◴[] No.44003235[source]
The question is: why hasn't the spelling been updated.

In my native German spelling, while there are irregularities, has been updated over times. Sometimes out of habit, sometimes by "order."

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umanwizard ◴[] No.44003255[source]
There have been some minor French spelling reforms over the years but French people are affectionately proud of their language with all its quirks, and changing the spelling of basic vocabulary like “est” would be a bridge too far for them.
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1. johannes1234321 ◴[] No.44003337[source]
Well, the last big German spelling reform in 1996 also had been quite a culture war, where big newspapers resisted for a while, rejecting "Delfin" over "Delphin" or reducing usage of "ß" and using more "ss" depending on the previous vowel etc.

But over time most of the change have proven to be successful ...

And yes, the French "est" will remain for the time being, but for me as a student of French there would have been a lot of low hanging fruit.

But today the interesting thing to me is how modern communication changes this. Text messaging leads to a massive increase in "dialect writing" while at the same time auto correction (and more recently AI) counters that. Back in the days™ writing was mostly done by the elites (authors, news papers, authorities) and the private letter was well thought. But test messaging, online forums, ... lead to more text being generated by "average" public, which over time certainly impacts "professional" writing.

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2. umanwizard ◴[] No.44003361[source]
I think the fact that that reform was successful at all, even with resistance, is evidence that Germans have less of a nationalistic attachment to their language than French people do. Even the extremely common grammatical particle “daß” was changed (to “dass”) — it’s just impossible for me to imagine anything similar ever being accepted in France.
3. mytailorisrich ◴[] No.44003461[source]
The thing is that reforms are not needed. Usually they are pushed under the argument of "simplification" by people who have arguably too much tome onbtheir hands but why is it needed and how far should you go?

It is not just spelling. There are periodic calls to simplify grammar for no other reason than apparently people get dumber and dumber over time and can't learn the language anymore so it should be simplified.

One example in France is reform to reduce the use of the subjunctive tense. For example, now when I read the news I see horrible stuff like "Après qu'ils ont" (instead of "Après qu'ils aient" [and btw "est" and "aient" are pronounced the same ;)]), which would have sent my primary school teacher into a rage. Why do that? Cynically just because the members of the Académie Française need to find something to do...