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The Awful German Language (1880)

(faculty.georgetown.edu)
185 points nalinidash | 4 comments | | HN request time: 0.847s | source
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bradley13 ◴[] No.44002276[source]
I can certainly confirm that learning German grammar as an adult is...challenging. Even though I am now fluent, learning as an adult means that you will always make mistakes on the gender of nouns. There are effectively four genders (male/neuter/female/plural), plus four cases (nominative/accusative/dative/genetive), so you have a 4x4 table giving you a choice of 16 articles that can appear in from of a noun. Only, the 16 articles are not unique: the table contains lots of duplicates in unexpected places.

Of course, most Western languages have gendered nouns - English is pretty unique in that respect. That likely comes from English being born as a pidgin of French and German.

Verbs in German are valuable things. You collect them, hold on to them as long as you can, and then - at the end of the sentence - they all come tumbling out. The order of the nouns at the end of the sentence differs by region. In purest German, they come out in reverse order, giving you a nice, context-free grammar. In Swiss dialects, they come out in the order they were conceived, meaning that the grammar is technically context sensitive. In Austrian dialects, the order can be a mix.

Of course, every language has its quirks. French, for example, puts extra letters on the ends of words that you are not supposed to pronounce. Well, unless the right two words are next to each other, in which case, you pronounce the letters after all.

English, meanwhile, gives learners fits, because the pronunciation has nothing whatsoever to do with spelling. Consider the letters "gh" in this sentence (thanks ChatGPT): "Though the tough man gave a sigh and a laugh at the ghost, he had a hiccough and coughed through the night by the slough, hoping to get enough rest."

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1. umanwizard ◴[] No.44003249[source]
I know what you’re getting at when you say that English is a pidgin of German and French, but that’s kind of a distorted version of the truth.

First of all, it is not German, but Old English, which is not particularly more similar to German than it is to any other Germanic language e.g. Icelandic.

Second, the idea that middle/modern English began as a pidgin is a very fringe view in linguistics; the vast majority of people who have studied the question would instead say that it indeed has a huge amount of French (or more precisely, Norman) influence, but not to the extent that we can say it went through a pidgin/creolization process.

IIRC (not sure about this) English is thought to have lost its case system mainly due to influence from Old Norse (which had a similar case system but with different and not mutually intelligible endings), not French.

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2. kuschku ◴[] No.44003879[source]
> First of all, it is not German, but Old English, which is not particularly more similar to German than it is to any other Germanic language e.g. Icelandic.

While English is changing relatively quickly, German isn't. Children today read original texts from the Gutenberg era in school without any trouble.

Where I grew up, we actually read some old english texts in school. It was hard, but certainly doable, using just our knowledge of modern German and English and the local dialects (north frisian and low german).

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3. umanwizard ◴[] No.44003941[source]
> we actually read some old english texts in school

How old? “Old English” is a term of art meaning the language exemplified e.g. by Beowulf or the writings of Aelfric, which I would be very impressed if you could read without special study, so perhaps you meant Middle English or Early Modern English.

As an example, the beginning of Beowulf reads: “Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum, þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon, hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.”

Middle English is the language of Chaucer and Early Modern English that of Shakespeare.

As a native English speaker (who can also read German at an intermediate level), I can read Shakespeare with some difficulty (relying on the copious footnotes that modern editions are peppered with), Chaucer with extreme difficulty, and Beowulf not at all.

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4. kuschku ◴[] No.44005567{3}[source]
> How old?

Well that's a good question I don't know the exact answer to. So I looked at the examples you provided.

Early Modern English:

Shakespeare's early modern English is something I can read fluently (and I know we read & acted his plays in original in school). To me that's basically the same as current English, just with slightly different vocabulary.

Middle English:

Original: "Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote" / Platt: "Wenn dat April, mit sien schuren sööte" / English: "When that April, with his showers sweet"

Original: "Inspired hath in every holt and heeth" / Platt: "Inspireert hett in elk Holt un Heid" / "Inspired has in every wood and heath"

That's probably the one we read in school. If you read it, it sounds like a grandparent combining mispronounced english and their dialect.

Old English:

Original: Cnut cyning gret his arcebiscopas and his leod-biscopas and Þurcyl eorl and ealle his eorlas and ealne his þeodscype, tƿelfhynde and tƿyhynde, gehadode and læƿede, on Englalande freondlice

Platt: Knut König greet sien Arzbischopes un sien Lüüd-Bischopes un Thorkell, jarl, un all sien jarls un all sin löödschaft, twalfhunnerte un tweehunnerte, widmete un laien, Engellande fründliche

English: Cnut, king, greets his archbishops and his people-bishops and Thorkell, earl, and all his earls and all his people ship, twelve hundred and two hundred, ordained and lay, in England friendly.

Now this one is much harder, especially as the spelling is getting even weirder, and the vocabulary includes a lot more danish words than middle English would, but pretty much every word exists in either modern English, or modern Low German.

> As a native English speaker (who can also read German at an intermediate level), I can read Shakespeare with some difficulty (relying on the copious footnotes that modern editions are peppered with), Chaucer with extreme difficulty, and Beowulf not at all.

The German dialects are clearly divided between Low German and High German, with different vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation. Standard German is based on the vocabulary and grammar of High German, so it won't be very helpful.

The closest living relative to Old and Middle English would be North Frisian, but Low German as spoken in Anglia today is still relatively close (as shown above).