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451 points birdculture | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.201s | source
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Animats ◴[] No.43979394[source]
It's like reading "A Discipline of Programming", by Dijkstra. That morality play approach was needed back then, because nobody knew how to think about this stuff.

Most explanations of ownership in Rust are far too wordy. See [1]. The core concepts are mostly there, but hidden under all the examples.

    - Each data object in Rust has exactly one owner.
      - Ownership can be transferred in ways that preserve the one-owner rule.
      - If you need multiple ownership, the real owner has to be a reference-counted cell. 
        Those cells can be cloned (duplicated.)
      - If the owner goes away, so do the things it owns.

    - You can borrow access to a data object using a reference. 
      - There's a big distinction between owning and referencing.
      - References can be passed around and stored, but cannot outlive the object.
        (That would be a "dangling pointer" error).
      - This is strictly enforced at compile time by the borrow checker.
That explains the model. Once that's understood, all the details can be tied back to those rules.

[1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch04-01-what-is-ownership.htm...

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frankie_t ◴[] No.43982619[source]
Maybe it's my learning limitations, but I find it hard to follow explanations like these. I had similar feelings about encapsulation explanations: it would say I can hide information without going into much detail. Why, from whom? How is it hiding if I can _see it on my screen_.

Similarly here, I can't understand for example _who_ is the owner. Is it a stack frame? Why would a stack frame want to move ownership to its callee, when by the nature of LIFO the callee stack will always be destroyed first, so there is no danger in hanging to it until callee returns. Is it for optimization, so that we can get rid of the object sooner? Could owner be something else than a stack frame? Why can mutable reference be only handed out once? If I'm only using a single thread, one function is guaranteed to finish before the other starts, so what is the harm in handing mutable references to both? Just slap my hands when I'm actually using multiple threads.

Of course, there are reasons for all of these things and they probably are not even that hard to understand. Somehow, every time I want to get into Rust I start chasing these things and give up a bit later.

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Hackbraten ◴[] No.43985111[source]
I think your comment has received excellent replies. However, no one has tackled your actual question so far:

> _who_ is the owner. Is it a stack frame?

I don’t think that it’s helpful to call a stack frame the owner in the sense of the borrow checker. If the owner was the stack frame, then why would it have to borrow objects to itself? The fact that the following code doesn’t compile seems to support that:

    fn main() {
        let a: String = "Hello".to_owned();
        let b = a;
        println!("{}", a);  // error[E0382]: borrow of moved value: `a`
    }
User lucozade’s comment has pointed out that the memory where the object lives is actually the thing that is being owned. So that can’t be the owner either.

So if neither a) the stack frame nor b) the memory where the object lives can be called the owner in the Rust sense, then what is?

Could the owner be the variable to which the owned chunk of memory is bound at a given point in time? In my mental model, yes. That would be consistent with all borrow checker semantics as I have understood them so far.

Feel free to correct me if I’m not making sense.

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adastra22 ◴[] No.43986175[source]
I believe this answer is correct. Ownership exists at the language level, not the machine level. Thinking of a part of the stack or a piece of memory as owning something isn’t correct. A language entity, like a variable, is what owns another object in rust. When that object goes at a scope, its resources are released, including all the things it owns.
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1. Animats ◴[] No.44002676[source]
> Ownership exists at the language level, not the machine level.

Right. That's the key here. "Move semantics" can let you move something from the stack to the heap, or the heap to the stack, provided that a lot of fussy rules are enforced. It's quite common to do this. You might create a struct on the stack, then push it onto a vector, to be appended at the end. Works fine. The data had to be copied, and the language took care of that. It also took care of preventing you from doing that if the struct isn't safely move copyable.

C++ now has "move semantics", but for legacy reasons, enforcement is not strict enough to prevent moves which should not be allowed.