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Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

(www.nytimes.com)
437 points Vinnl | 6 comments | 13 May 25 10:43 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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maerF0x0 ◴[14 May 25 14:34 UTC] No.43985046[source]▶
Not to settle on "It's bad" but their so called "results" seems completely obvious.

The congestion policy is disincentivizing/suppressing people's preferred method by making it unaffordable to some, and unappealing to some. We already know that we can use policy to push people away from their preferred to a less preferred method. The items listed in green are mostly obvious as people seek alternatives. It's like highlighting how many fewer chicken deaths would occur if we created an omnivore or meat tax.

IMO what they should be keeping a careful eye on and tracking is how many fewer trips happen to businesses in those areas. How much fewer social interaction is happening across the distances that those car based trips used to occur. And how much harder is it to get goods into the areas. Is less economic activity happening.

In the long run, yes, maybe things will be net better for all, when the $45M per year has had a chance to make alternative transportation methods to be not just policy enforced, but truly _preferred_ option.

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zzzeek ◴[14 May 25 14:38 UTC] No.43985091[source]▶
there should be a meat tax, btw. I eat a ton of steak but it's costing the ecosystem dearly
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shermantanktop ◴[14 May 25 14:54 UTC] No.43985267[source]▶
How high would the tax have to be to get you to stop eating so much meat?
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w0m ◴[14 May 25 15:04 UTC] No.43985393[source]▶
Think about it more; if the vegan and steak options were ~equivalently priced - more would choose vegan than if it wasn't more expensive. The idea isn't to make it prohibitive; insofaras don't make the most environmentally-expensive choice also the cheapest.

To compare it to traffic; everyone is miserable sitting in traffic; so giving people an excuse for a bit more WFH is a WinWin.

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vidarh ◴[14 May 25 15:14 UTC] No.43985547[source]▶
As a committed meat-eater: I have no idea what vegan food costs, as the label almost immediate makes me skip over them. To make me look at them, you'd have to make the non-vegan options prohibitively expensive.
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aziaziazi ◴[14 May 25 17:27 UTC] No.43987101[source]▶
Well most raw vegan food is already way cheaper that raw meat:

Quality organic dry chickpeas, lentils, beans, soy etc… already are around 2€/kg where I live and when you add water they double/triple in weight so you end up at 1€/kg. You’ll probably eat a bit more weight than meat but still the price is nowhere comparable. Add some whole cereals instead of white bread for nutrition and better satiety: they’re more expensive but you got the price back on the quantity you eat (you won’t stuff yourself that much T165 bread or brown rice: the fibers will make you feel full super fast). And for the vegetable you usually can find stuff super nutritious for cheap : apples, leak, cabbages and alls sorts of oignons.

Even fancy organic quinoa is like 10€/kg but also double in weight and you only eat ~1.3 times the meat weight you’ll eat in meat-meal.

Industrial chicken is 5€/kg un the shop and "good" one 15€/kg. Quality beef is nowhere in that range.

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vidarh ◴[14 May 25 22:20 UTC] No.43989782[source]▶
Missing the point, which was that you're not going to convince people like me who ignore the vegan options just by having them be cheaper than meat, because I won't look.

The only thing that would make me look at the vegan options would be if I felt I couldn't afford the meat options.

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zahlman ◴[14 May 25 23:27 UTC] No.43990248[source]▶
Okay, but why is that?
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1. vidarh ◴[15 May 25 11:38 UTC] No.43993953[source]▶
Because my experience is that I don't find the food tempting, and so it feels pointless to spend time considering it.
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2. w0m ◴[15 May 25 14:50 UTC] No.43995683[source]▶
> I don't find the food tempting

One thing I realized a number of years ago is that my childhood instilled biases in me.

A Few Examples:

Sushi/Raw Fish/ethnic/spicy food == Bad Apple Products == For Suckers Ford == Found On Road Dead (bowtie life) AMD >>> Evil Netburst Intel empire.

When I realized just how irrational I was on soo many subjects (I had never seen sushi or really any ethnic food until I was at my first SDE job as a 20somthing) - it made me re-evaluate.

> pointless to spend time considering it

Since then; Anytime I've ever considered something pointless to consider - it's been a trigger to consider it. Has honestly been kind of life changing revelation; has led to a much more varied and interesting life than I would have led otherwise based off my upbringing/predispositions. I'd even venture as far as to say it's made me inherently happier as a person as I no longer sneer at the apple user/sky diver/snow boarder/ebike rider/mountain climber/etc - now I look into it and possibly plan a trip.

I'm not saying "vegan > Meat" - I myself BBQ fairly often; but I'd also advise one to consider the vegan entree you sneered at prior; it may well just surprise you. And if it doesn't; the punishment is a deeper understanding! (.. and maybe paying for second lunch. but that's the risk)

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3. aziaziazi ◴[15 May 25 17:08 UTC] No.43997077[source]▶
> Anytime I've ever considered something pointless to consider - it's been a trigger to consider it.

This is a great motto, probably a root of self-actualisation path. It has been one of my value too but its too easy to forget, thanks for the reminder.

As you talk about barbecue and you like experiences, have you tried Tempeh [0] ? It's off the radar in some parts of the world but a daily staple in others. God for at marinade of your choice for the first time (not raw) or crumble it in a sauce you already know. That stuff is really surprising at first (like... cheese maybe?) but it's really an interesting ingredient. If you can't find it in your "health food store" you may google it for a almost-local seller that ship, for exemple [1] in UK.

[0] http://tempeh.info [1] https://www.temptmetempeh.co.uk/

4. vidarh ◴[15 May 25 17:34 UTC] No.43997341[source]▶
My view of vegan food has been shaped by occasionally suffering it (ok, so I' exaggerating with the "suffering")

Heck, my breakfeast at the moment is vegan, because I'm on a diet and cutting real milk out of it let me drop a few more calories, not because I find it more enjoyable, because I very much detest the milk substitute. But cutting a few more calories makes it easier to add plenty of meat to my other meals.

It's not even that it's always bad. It's again that cost isn't going to get me to consider the vegan options unless the cost difference is absolutely brutal. Other factors might on occasion, such as diet.

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5. zahlman ◴[16 May 25 02:03 UTC] No.44001204{3}[source]▶
> cutting real milk out of it let me drop a few more calories, not because I find it more enjoyable, because I very much detest the milk substitute.

Way off topic now, but: emphasis on few. Surely you don't use more than a couple ounces on a bowl of cereal? You might lose about 20 calories this way - but if you find it that unpleasant, you'll surely find them somewhere else.

> But cutting a few more calories makes it easier to add plenty of meat to my other meals.

Sure - perhaps an extra third of an ounce of steak.

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6. vidarh ◴[16 May 25 10:34 UTC] No.44003731{4}[source]▶
A few here and there adds up. Once I've reached my target weight, I'll ease up gently, and that's certainly one of the things I'll ease up on. For now, it's finding savings everywhere that doesn't affect my sateity.

(Also, I realised I was wrong - I forgot my breakfast has plenty of whey produced from milk in it, so vegetarian but certainly not vegan)