←back to thread

445 points r4um | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
Show context
sph ◴[] No.43982439[source]
I love this! I have done a lot of CS research lately, and some of these I haven’t come across yet.

Let me share some of my favourites not listed here, off the top of my head:

- Ian Piumarta’s “Open, Extensible Object Models” (https://www.piumarta.com/software/id-objmodel/objmodel2.pdf) is about creating the most minimal object-oriented metaobject system that allows the maximum amount of freedom for the programmer. It basically only defines a message send operation, everything else can be changed at runtime. The practical counterpart to the dense “Art of the Metaobject Protocol” book.

- John Ousterhout “Scripting: Higher-Level Programming for the 21st Century” (https://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/papers/scripting.pd...) - not really a paper, but an article from the creator of Tcl about the dichotomy between systems programming languages and scripting languages. Obvious at first sight, the lessons therein have wide ramifications IMO. We always seek the perfect multi-paradigm language that can do anything at high performance with the most productivity, while perhaps it is best to have compiled, fast, clunky systems languages paired with ergonomic, flexible interpreted frontend. Often all you need is C+Tcl in the same app. A must-read for anyone writing yet another programming language.

- Niklaus Wirth's Project Oberon (https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/ProjectOberon/) is the implementation of an entire computer system, from the high-level UI down to kernel, compiler, and a RISC-like CPU architecture. He wrote the seminal "plea for lean software" and actually walked the walk. A long lost art in the era of dependency hell and towering abstractions from mediocre coders.

replies(2): >>43983431 #>>43984169 #
johnecheck ◴[] No.43983431[source]
Hmm, I disagree with Ousterhout's dichotomy and conclusions.

First, my understanding of his points - a language is either a systems language like C or a scripting language like TCL or python. Systems language have "strong" types and are for data structures/algorithms, scripting languages are "typeless" and are for "gluing things together".

The main claim is that scripting languages are more concise and allow for faster development when gluing due to their 'typeless' nature.

In his example, he creates a button in Tcl.

button .b -text Hello! -font {Times 16} -command {puts hello}

He goes on to say:

With C++ and Microsoft Foundation Classes (MFC), it requires about 25 lines of code in three procedures. 1 Just set- ting the font requires several lines of code in MFC: CFont *fontPtr = new CFont(); fontPtr->CreateFont(16, 0, 0, 0, 700, 0, 0, 0, ANSI_CHARSET, OUT_DEFAULT_PRECIS, CLIP_DEFAULT_PRECIS, DEFAULT_QUALITY, DEFAULT_PITCH|FF_DONTCARE, “Times New Roman”); buttonPtr->SetFont(fontPtr);

Much of this code is a consequence of the strong typ- ing[...] In Tcl, the essential characteristics of the font (typeface Times, size 16 points) can be used immediately with no declarations or conversions. Furthermore, Tcl allows the button’s behavior to be included directly in the command that cre- ates the button, while C++ and Java require it to be placed in a separately declared method.

End quote.

We've come a long way, and examples have made clear that this dichotomy is a false one. Ousterhout's view was colored by his limited experience, resulting in him misunderstanding what he actually likes about Tcl.

Let's talk about syntax. His exact Tcl code as presented could be parsed and compiled by a language that does static type analysis. It's not, because he's running it in an interpreter that only checks types at runtime. But the point is that whether code is compiled or interpreted is an implementation detail that has very little to do with the syntax. He likes his syntax because his syntax is obviously better than C++, nothing more.

And types: he claims that 'typeless' languages allow for faster development because of fewer restrictions. This is, ofc, nonsense. The amount of restrictions you have is a function of your problem, not your language. If it feels like dynamic typing is letting you develop faster, that's because you're putting off encountering those restrictions til later.

It's better to guarantee we encounter all type errors before the program even runs. But since you can do static type analysis for any language, why don't all languages do that?

Because it's hard. Type theory is complicated. Not all type systems are decidable, we need to pick one that is for practical reasons. Ones that are may require annotations or complex algorithms/semantics restrictions like Hindley-Milner.

As a PL designer, it's a whole lot easier to just give up and only check types at runtime. And that makes a whole lot of sense if your priority is just embedding a usable language ASAP. But let's not pretend that it's because it's actually better.

replies(9): >>43983546 #>>43983573 #>>43983855 #>>43984469 #>>43984830 #>>43985197 #>>43986718 #>>43988063 #>>43988641 #
WalterBright ◴[] No.43986718[source]
I opine that typeless languages are best for short programs, because one can understand 100% of the program. Typed languages are a way to manage the complexity of a larger program.

For a related example, the BASIC programming language is great for programs that fit in 24 lines (which is how many lines a glass tty displayed).

replies(3): >>43988536 #>>43991531 #>>43992520 #
1. musicale ◴[] No.43991531[source]
BASIC variables are typed. BASIC was also originally designed for printing terminals, so there was no 24 line limit.

Modern BASICs are suitable for writing larger programs.

Also seen today on HN:

"I Miss Visual Basic" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43988853

"The history and legacy of Visual Basic" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43949855

replies(1): >>43993062 #
2. WalterBright ◴[] No.43993062[source]
The BASIC I used was BASIC-10 on the PDP-10 in the 70's. It wasn't much improved over the original.

The 24 line thing was a limitation of the glass tty, not BASIC.

replies(1): >>44011633 #
3. musicale ◴[] No.44011633[source]
Having functions that fit on one screen is still a good idea I think.

My point was that printing, teletype-style terminals don't have an intrinsic vertical space limit like video display terminals (and eventually the printouts can get quite long).

But now that I think about it, perhaps the designers of BASIC might have been thinking of making it easy for a beginner to spend an afternoon or two learning how to write something comparable to a short FORTRAN program that might fit on a small deck of 80 column (72 with sequence number) punched cards.