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Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

(www.nytimes.com)
437 points Vinnl | 16 comments | 13 May 25 10:43 UTC | HN request time: 1.495s | source | bottom
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jmyeet ◴[14 May 25 15:04 UTC] No.43985407[source]▶
I was living in London when congestion pricing was introduced and went into the West End the day before and the first day of and the difference was night and day. The difference along Oxford Street, Regent's Street, Green Street, etc was astounding.

And in the 20+ years the evidence seems to back up how much of a net positive it has been.

NYC congestion pricing took way too long because the New York Democratic Party sucks and, as usual, legal efforts were made to block it, much as how well-intentioned laws like CEQA (designed to protect the environment) are actually just weaponized to block development of any kind.

What's so bizarre to me is how many people have strong opinions on NYC congestion pricing who have never been and will never go to NYC. Americans love the slippery slope argument. It's like "well, if they make driving cars slightly more expensive in Lower Manhattan then next the government is going to take away my gas-guzzling truck in Idaho".

What's also surprising is how many people who live in outer Queens and Brooklyn chose to drive into Manhattan and were complaining how this changed their behavior. Um, that was the point. I honestly didn't know how many people like that there were.

What really needs to happen but probably never will is to get rid of free street parking below about 96th street or 110th.

Also, either ban or simply charge more for combustion vehicles. Go and look at how quiet Chinese cities are where the vehicles are predominantly electric now.

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listenallyall ◴[14 May 25 21:45 UTC] No.43989536[source]▶
Why does the slippery slope concept surprise you? It actually happens often - banning smoking indoors, for example - started in just one city, once they tweaked the model and overcame the legal challenges, it spread rather quickly. Legalized casinos, same thing. Uber, drinking age, pot legalization, more. Why would toll roads or congestion pricing be different? (Idaho's Sun Valley probably already implements something similar). And ICE vehicles are definitely in many politicians' crosshairs, if you don't already see that coming in the next decade, you aren't really looking.
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gjsman-1000 ◴[14 May 25 22:20 UTC] No.43989788[source]▶
> Why would toll roads or congestion pricing be different?

The answer is actually quite simple: It won't be different. Prove to me it won't spread, because almost every new tax spreads.

When is the last time a tax has existed in one state, and not spread to other states within 5 years?

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1. ackfoobar ◴[14 May 25 22:47 UTC] No.43989978[source]▶
I'm generally sympathetic to arguments that are "we will fall down the slippery slope." But as someone who has spent too much time stuck in traffic, I WANT congestion pricing to spread. It's just basic economics that people end up paying for a "free" resource with time - grossly inefficient.
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2. zhivota ◴[14 May 25 23:43 UTC] No.43990353[source]▶
The trains and subway are right there...
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3. joshuamorton ◴[15 May 25 00:04 UTC] No.43990485{4}[source]▶
The fun question of course is, are you actually safer on the road, or does it just feel safer? Which is more likely, a subway assault or a dangerous road-rage incident? There's tons of examples of road rage incidents in NYC where people have guns pulled on them or worse. But that isn't a particular visceral fear folks have (and you shouldn't!), but the likelihood of you getting shot on the subway is about the same, if not lower, than being shot elsewhere.
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4. ackfoobar ◴[15 May 25 01:41 UTC] No.43991026{4}[source]▶
It's funny how the urban design forcing poor people to pay car insurance and auto loan, just to survive, is fine; yet charging a hundred or so to use the highly valuable space in the city is outrageous.

Concern about public order is fair. But instead of fighting for the privilege to avoid it cheaply, why not fight to actually fix it. Triple the prison population, or whatever your solution is.

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5. gjsman-1000 ◴[15 May 25 01:47 UTC] No.43991065{5}[source]▶
Japan has a 99% conviction rate, and still has 56% of women reporting having been groped on transit.

This cannot be solved. To force women on transit is to flip a coin whether they will be assaulted. You’re not going to beat a car culture with that strategy.

I heavily doubt that New York City has the appetite for incarceration that would be necessary, for even a remote chance, to turn public transit into a merely neutral option versus a car.

What about bikes? I thought they were great too, until someone was careless with their dog and left me bleeding and weighing the probabilities of serious disease. Just like that, the dream was dead and I realized we will never escape car culture.

Cars are bad. The alternatives are too flawed and dangerous in their own ways, to have any serious chance at unseating the incumbent.

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6. woodruffw ◴[15 May 25 01:57 UTC] No.43991127{4}[source]▶
I can't find any source online that says felony assaults on the subway are up 9% this year. Even the Post, which is typically inclined towards hyping crime rates, reports that felony assault rates are flat this year[1]. The same source claims that major offenses have dropped 18% YoY so far.

As with so many other things about NYC, salacious stories are given a funhouse mirror effect: you wouldn't want to fill your car's gas tank next to someone who has a victim in their trunk, but that person isn't being given national news coverage like the corpse abuser was.

[1]: https://nypost.com/2025/04/03/us-news/nyc-subway-crime-drops...

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7. gjsman-1000 ◴[15 May 25 02:01 UTC] No.43991147{5}[source]▶
3 hours ago:

https://nypost.com/2025/05/14/us-news/nyc-subway-musicians-f...

New York Times in March:

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/14/nyregion/subway-crime-nyc...

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8. woodruffw ◴[15 May 25 02:09 UTC] No.43991186{6}[source]▶
This Post article doesn't provide a source. Mine claims the NYPD as a source but doesn't link it either, though. It seems like only one of these can be correct: there would have to be a very large spike in felony assaults in a single month for the number to go up by 9% YoY.

The Times article doesn't mention this year's stats. Last year's were definitely worse, so it's not surprising they mention that.

9. bitfilped ◴[15 May 25 02:39 UTC] No.43991297{6}[source]▶
Japan is not NY and arguments based on sociatal/cultural behavior don't apply universally. Do you personally use these scary subway systems in the US that you have so many stats about?
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10. gjsman-1000 ◴[15 May 25 02:55 UTC] No.43991390{7}[source]▶
Interesting; instead of trying to answer my statistical objection, you are now forcing me to provide anecdotal evidence; to then most likely reject it for being anecdotal evidence. Pass.

As for “it doesn’t apply universally,” that’s not an argument because almost nothing applies universally - not even a sunrise and sunset, if you’re at the North Pole. My point can still be valid in almost all metro areas.

Finally, let’s say I did use these systems (and, sometimes, I do use public transit). I’m a man, you are 90% likely here to be a man, we’re not the ones getting groped, therefore our personal opinions on the likelihood are obviously irrelevant. You should be asking your wife and your 15 year old daughter to ride for a year and rate their comfort level.

11. tomhow ◴[15 May 25 03:37 UTC] No.43991602[source]▶
> Right, because you’re an elitist

Please stop this style of commenting. You've been here long enough to know it's against the guidelines.

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12. gjsman-1000 ◴[15 May 25 13:44 UTC] No.43995032{3}[source]▶
[flagged]
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13. dml2135 ◴[15 May 25 16:26 UTC] No.43996638[source]▶
> don’t mind imposing a $180 pay cut every month to the poor

LIRR monthly passes are anywhere from $180 to $400+. Are you advocating for making those free as well, or is that different somehow?

14. Mawr ◴[16 May 25 00:13 UTC] No.44000607{6}[source]▶
Now think real carefully why you had to jump all the way over to Japan in order to be able to make your point at all. Cherry picking at its finest. Japan is very culturally different from the West and such issues are tightly tied to that culture.

> What about bikes? I thought they were great too, until someone was careless with their dog and left me bleeding and weighing the probabilities of serious disease.

You know you can trip, fall, hit your head and die on the spot anytime you walk anywhere right? A piano can randomly fall on your head too. Nothing is 100% safe; it's unfortunate you had an accident, but that's just anecdotal evidence, which is worthless.

15. tomhow ◴[16 May 25 08:50 UTC] No.44003152{4}[source]▶
This is all plainly false. Community members who are sincere about wanting to make HN better or just holding the moderators to account can easily do so. They can email us with URLs, or include URLs in their accusatory comments. Plenty of community members do that and we always take action or explain our thoughts on the matter.

Accusations like this one, without any evidence that would enable other community members to check for themselves, serve only to deflect from the accuser's own conduct, and achieve nothing but make the site worse.

If you're sincere in being concerned about the patterns you claim are so pervasive here, please cite the evidence so we can all understand what you're talking about and enable the moderators to take the appropriate action.

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16. gjsman-1000 ◴[18 May 25 01:58 UTC] No.44018392{5}[source]▶
I maintain that the claim inflammatory content is equally treated is plainly false. I would even say that your post above serves only to deflect from your own conduct.

Case in point, just today, of what I have seen hundreds of times in just the last year:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44018355

This does not pass guidelines, this does not satisfy curiosity, I have rarely seen a warning for content like this. Sometimes it gets flagged, more often it doesn’t.