←back to thread

445 points r4um | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.297s | source
Show context
sph ◴[] No.43982439[source]
I love this! I have done a lot of CS research lately, and some of these I haven’t come across yet.

Let me share some of my favourites not listed here, off the top of my head:

- Ian Piumarta’s “Open, Extensible Object Models” (https://www.piumarta.com/software/id-objmodel/objmodel2.pdf) is about creating the most minimal object-oriented metaobject system that allows the maximum amount of freedom for the programmer. It basically only defines a message send operation, everything else can be changed at runtime. The practical counterpart to the dense “Art of the Metaobject Protocol” book.

- John Ousterhout “Scripting: Higher-Level Programming for the 21st Century” (https://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/papers/scripting.pd...) - not really a paper, but an article from the creator of Tcl about the dichotomy between systems programming languages and scripting languages. Obvious at first sight, the lessons therein have wide ramifications IMO. We always seek the perfect multi-paradigm language that can do anything at high performance with the most productivity, while perhaps it is best to have compiled, fast, clunky systems languages paired with ergonomic, flexible interpreted frontend. Often all you need is C+Tcl in the same app. A must-read for anyone writing yet another programming language.

- Niklaus Wirth's Project Oberon (https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/ProjectOberon/) is the implementation of an entire computer system, from the high-level UI down to kernel, compiler, and a RISC-like CPU architecture. He wrote the seminal "plea for lean software" and actually walked the walk. A long lost art in the era of dependency hell and towering abstractions from mediocre coders.

replies(2): >>43983431 #>>43984169 #
johnecheck ◴[] No.43983431[source]
Hmm, I disagree with Ousterhout's dichotomy and conclusions.

First, my understanding of his points - a language is either a systems language like C or a scripting language like TCL or python. Systems language have "strong" types and are for data structures/algorithms, scripting languages are "typeless" and are for "gluing things together".

The main claim is that scripting languages are more concise and allow for faster development when gluing due to their 'typeless' nature.

In his example, he creates a button in Tcl.

button .b -text Hello! -font {Times 16} -command {puts hello}

He goes on to say:

With C++ and Microsoft Foundation Classes (MFC), it requires about 25 lines of code in three procedures. 1 Just set- ting the font requires several lines of code in MFC: CFont *fontPtr = new CFont(); fontPtr->CreateFont(16, 0, 0, 0, 700, 0, 0, 0, ANSI_CHARSET, OUT_DEFAULT_PRECIS, CLIP_DEFAULT_PRECIS, DEFAULT_QUALITY, DEFAULT_PITCH|FF_DONTCARE, “Times New Roman”); buttonPtr->SetFont(fontPtr);

Much of this code is a consequence of the strong typ- ing[...] In Tcl, the essential characteristics of the font (typeface Times, size 16 points) can be used immediately with no declarations or conversions. Furthermore, Tcl allows the button’s behavior to be included directly in the command that cre- ates the button, while C++ and Java require it to be placed in a separately declared method.

End quote.

We've come a long way, and examples have made clear that this dichotomy is a false one. Ousterhout's view was colored by his limited experience, resulting in him misunderstanding what he actually likes about Tcl.

Let's talk about syntax. His exact Tcl code as presented could be parsed and compiled by a language that does static type analysis. It's not, because he's running it in an interpreter that only checks types at runtime. But the point is that whether code is compiled or interpreted is an implementation detail that has very little to do with the syntax. He likes his syntax because his syntax is obviously better than C++, nothing more.

And types: he claims that 'typeless' languages allow for faster development because of fewer restrictions. This is, ofc, nonsense. The amount of restrictions you have is a function of your problem, not your language. If it feels like dynamic typing is letting you develop faster, that's because you're putting off encountering those restrictions til later.

It's better to guarantee we encounter all type errors before the program even runs. But since you can do static type analysis for any language, why don't all languages do that?

Because it's hard. Type theory is complicated. Not all type systems are decidable, we need to pick one that is for practical reasons. Ones that are may require annotations or complex algorithms/semantics restrictions like Hindley-Milner.

As a PL designer, it's a whole lot easier to just give up and only check types at runtime. And that makes a whole lot of sense if your priority is just embedding a usable language ASAP. But let's not pretend that it's because it's actually better.

replies(9): >>43983546 #>>43983573 #>>43983855 #>>43984469 #>>43984830 #>>43985197 #>>43986718 #>>43988063 #>>43988641 #
sph ◴[] No.43983546[source]
> It's better to guarantee we encounter all type errors before the program even runs.

This is only valid if you either are writing mission-critical software, or have infinite time.

Your argument doesn’t consider the case that you have a deadline and need to ship, so optimising for productivity, rather than asymptotic typing perfection, is paramount. There is a reason even performance-critical environments, where scripting languages are not very well suited, somehow still lean on them for productivity.

Case in point, game dev (Unreal Engine with its blueprint system, Godot with GDScript, the myriad of game engines in C++ paired with Lua.) Of course in a vacuum game devs would like to write ideal data structures with strong typing so that the game doesn’t crash, but their goal is to ship a game within the decade, so limit the strong typing to performance critical engine and can focus on building and iterating on the core product without consulting type theory books.

The point of Mr. Ousterhout’s argument is that there are only two choices: either we invent the panacea, the mythical productive strong-typed language that gives 100% safety yet enables experimentation, optional typing and compiles to C++ speed native code, or we accept that this is an impossible pipe dream, and we need to use the correct tool for the problem. Again, obvious on the surface, but still a contentious point to this day.

replies(1): >>43984618 #
RetroTechie ◴[] No.43984618[source]
>The point of Mr. Ousterhout’s argument is that there are only two choices:

Ultimately, it all compiles down to assembly (which is executed), or an interpreter (which is executed). Assembly all the way. The real choice here is: turn into assembly ahead of time (programmer's code becomes assembly), or do so at runtime (assembly interprets programmer's code). Or some in-between like JIT compilation. And: what guardrails you put in place.

So you could say that higher-level languages are just a way to make tedious/nasty assembly coding more palatable. Eg. by producing error reports vs. just crashing a machine. Or provide a sandbox. Or provide a model of computation that fits well with programmer's thinking.

Between those, you simply need some useful abstractions. Preferably ones that are simple yet versatile/universal.

Eg. a (bitmap) "screen" could just be a flat memory space (framebuffer). Or a 2-D array of pixels, potentially with "pixel" defined elsewhere.

Programmer doesn't care how GPU is coerced into displaying those pixels, low-level code doesn't care what higher-level software does to produce them.

And then have as few as those abstractions as possible (but no less!). Tcl: "everything is a string". Lisp: "everything is a list". Unix(-like): "everything is a file". Etc.

Personally, I have a soft spot for languages that punch above their weight for expressiveness / few but useful abstractions vs. their implementation size. Things like Forth, Tcl or Lua come to mind.

But hey that's just me. Developers & organisations they're in make their own choices.

replies(2): >>43986328 #>>43989016 #
sph ◴[] No.43986328[source]
> So you could say that higher-level languages are just a way to make tedious/nasty assembly coding more palatable.

Well, the point of scripting languages is mostly dynamic typing and dynamic binding, which means resolving bindings at runtime, which means slower in execution. There is no silver bullet: you want speed, you need a clunky language that compiles to fast machine code. If you want ease of use and less ceremony, you’ll get a slower language.

replies(1): >>43987593 #
1. static_void ◴[] No.43987593[source]
Dynamic languages are definitely easier to use for highly dynamic problems.

They are not necessarily easier to use for statically-knowable problems.

Static languages get benefits in correctness and speed.

Key word is dynamic.