←back to thread

452 points birdculture | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.201s | source
Show context
Animats ◴[] No.43979394[source]
It's like reading "A Discipline of Programming", by Dijkstra. That morality play approach was needed back then, because nobody knew how to think about this stuff.

Most explanations of ownership in Rust are far too wordy. See [1]. The core concepts are mostly there, but hidden under all the examples.

    - Each data object in Rust has exactly one owner.
      - Ownership can be transferred in ways that preserve the one-owner rule.
      - If you need multiple ownership, the real owner has to be a reference-counted cell. 
        Those cells can be cloned (duplicated.)
      - If the owner goes away, so do the things it owns.

    - You can borrow access to a data object using a reference. 
      - There's a big distinction between owning and referencing.
      - References can be passed around and stored, but cannot outlive the object.
        (That would be a "dangling pointer" error).
      - This is strictly enforced at compile time by the borrow checker.
That explains the model. Once that's understood, all the details can be tied back to those rules.

[1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch04-01-what-is-ownership.htm...

replies(17): >>43979460 #>>43979907 #>>43980199 #>>43981064 #>>43981313 #>>43981587 #>>43981720 #>>43982074 #>>43982249 #>>43982619 #>>43982747 #>>43983156 #>>43984730 #>>43988460 #>>43990363 #>>43996196 #>>44008391 #
ameliaquining ◴[] No.43979460[source]
Summarizing a set of concepts in a way that feels correct and complete to someone who understands them, is a much easier task than explaining them to someone who doesn't. If we put this in front of someone who's only worked with call-by-sharing languages, do you think they'll get it right away? I'm skeptical.
replies(4): >>43979483 #>>43979677 #>>43979870 #>>43981052 #
bloppe ◴[] No.43979677[source]
For me it really clicked when I realized ownership / lifetimes / references are just words used to talk about when things get dropped. Maybe because I have a background in C so I'm used to manual memory management. Rust basically just calls 'free' for you the moment something goes out of scope.

All the jargon definitely distracted me from grasping that simple core concept.

replies(3): >>43979804 #>>43979871 #>>43980449 #
mikepurvis ◴[] No.43980449[source]
"Rust basically just calls 'free' for you the moment something goes out of scope."

C++ does that too with RAII. Go ahead and use whatever STL containers you like, emplace objects onto them, and everything will be safely single-owned with you never having to manually new or delete any of it.

The difference is that C++'s guarantees in this regard derive from a) a bunch of implementation magic that exists to hide the fact that those supposedly stack-allocated containers are in fact allocating heap objects behind your back, and b) you cooperating with the restrictions given in the API docs, agreeing not to hold pointers to the member objects or do weird things with casting. You can use scoped_ptr/unique_ptr but the whole time you'll be painfully aware of how it's been bolted onto the language later and whenever you want you can call get() on it for the "raw" underlying pointer and use it to shoot yourself in the foot.

Rust formalizes this protection and puts it into the compiler so that you're prevented from doing it "wrong".

replies(2): >>43981314 #>>43982628 #
throwawaymaths ◴[] No.43981314[source]
the tradeoff is that ~you have to guess where rust is doing the frees, and you might be wrong. in the end this would be strictly equivalent to an explicit instruction to free, with the compiler refusing to compile if the free location broke the rules.

It's really too bad rust went the RAII route.

replies(3): >>43982274 #>>43982685 #>>43982728 #
swiftcoder ◴[] No.43982685[source]
There's no guessing - Rust has well defined drop order. It also has manual drop, should you wish to override the defined order.
replies(1): >>43984049 #
1. throwawaymaths ◴[] No.43984049[source]
sorry i shouldn't have said guess. i meant consider