←back to thread

451 points birdculture | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
Show context
Animats ◴[] No.43979394[source]
It's like reading "A Discipline of Programming", by Dijkstra. That morality play approach was needed back then, because nobody knew how to think about this stuff.

Most explanations of ownership in Rust are far too wordy. See [1]. The core concepts are mostly there, but hidden under all the examples.

    - Each data object in Rust has exactly one owner.
      - Ownership can be transferred in ways that preserve the one-owner rule.
      - If you need multiple ownership, the real owner has to be a reference-counted cell. 
        Those cells can be cloned (duplicated.)
      - If the owner goes away, so do the things it owns.

    - You can borrow access to a data object using a reference. 
      - There's a big distinction between owning and referencing.
      - References can be passed around and stored, but cannot outlive the object.
        (That would be a "dangling pointer" error).
      - This is strictly enforced at compile time by the borrow checker.
That explains the model. Once that's understood, all the details can be tied back to those rules.

[1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch04-01-what-is-ownership.htm...

replies(17): >>43979460 #>>43979907 #>>43980199 #>>43981064 #>>43981313 #>>43981587 #>>43981720 #>>43982074 #>>43982249 #>>43982619 #>>43982747 #>>43983156 #>>43984730 #>>43988460 #>>43990363 #>>43996196 #>>44008391 #
frankie_t ◴[] No.43982619[source]
Maybe it's my learning limitations, but I find it hard to follow explanations like these. I had similar feelings about encapsulation explanations: it would say I can hide information without going into much detail. Why, from whom? How is it hiding if I can _see it on my screen_.

Similarly here, I can't understand for example _who_ is the owner. Is it a stack frame? Why would a stack frame want to move ownership to its callee, when by the nature of LIFO the callee stack will always be destroyed first, so there is no danger in hanging to it until callee returns. Is it for optimization, so that we can get rid of the object sooner? Could owner be something else than a stack frame? Why can mutable reference be only handed out once? If I'm only using a single thread, one function is guaranteed to finish before the other starts, so what is the harm in handing mutable references to both? Just slap my hands when I'm actually using multiple threads.

Of course, there are reasons for all of these things and they probably are not even that hard to understand. Somehow, every time I want to get into Rust I start chasing these things and give up a bit later.

replies(7): >>43983021 #>>43983228 #>>43983276 #>>43983536 #>>43985111 #>>43988282 #>>43991211 #
1. kibwen ◴[] No.43983536[source]
> Why would a stack frame want to move ownership to its callee

Rust's system of ownership and borrowing effectively lets you hand out "permissions" for data access. The owner gets the maximum permissions, including the ability to hand out references, which grant lesser permissions.

In some cases these permissions are useful for performance, yes. The owner has the permission to eagerly destroy something to instantly free up memory. It also has the permission to "move out" data, which allows you to avoid making unnecessary copies.

But it's useful for other reasons too. For example, threads don't follow a stack discipline; a callee is not guaranteed to terminate before the caller returns, so passing ownership of data sent to another thread is important for correctness.

And naturally, the ability to pass ownership to higher stack frames (from callee to caller) is also necessary for correctness.

In practice, people write functions that need the least permissions necessary. It's overwhelmingly common for callees to take references rather than taking ownership, because what they're doing just doesn't require ownership.