←back to thread

451 points croes | 9 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
Show context
brador ◴[] No.43962450[source]
Lifetime for human copyright, 20 years for corporate copyright. That’s the golden zone.
replies(2): >>43962626 #>>43962923 #
Zambyte ◴[] No.43962626[source]
Zero (0) years for corporate copyright, zero (0) years for human copyright is the golden zone in my book.
replies(2): >>43962681 #>>43963025 #
umanwizard ◴[] No.43962681[source]
Why?
replies(2): >>43962773 #>>43962937 #
Zambyte ◴[] No.43962773[source]
It took me a while to be convinced that copyright is strictly a bad idea, but these two articles were very convincing to me.

https://drewdevault.com/2020/08/24/Alice-in-Wonderland.html

https://drewdevault.com/2021/12/23/Sustainable-creativity-po...

replies(2): >>43962953 #>>43963511 #
SketchySeaBeast ◴[] No.43962953[source]
The first article is saying that "Copyright is bad because of corporations", and I can kind of get behind that, especially the very long term copyrights that have lost the intent, but the second article says that artists will be happier without copyright if we just solve capitalism first. I don't know about you, but that reads to me like "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch you must first invent the universe".

If an artist produces a work they should have the rights to that work. If I self-publish a novel and then penguin decides that novel is really good and they want to publish it, without copyright they'd just do that, totally swamping me with their clout and punishing my ever putting the work out. That's a bad thing.

replies(3): >>43963451 #>>43963590 #>>43963819 #
1. Zambyte ◴[] No.43963451{3}[source]
> If an artist produces a work they should have the rights to that work.

That would indeed be nice, but as the article says, that's usually not the case. The rights holder and the author are almost never the same entity in commercial artistic endeavors. I know I'm not the rights holder for my erroneously-considered-art work (software).

> If I self-publish a novel and then penguin decides that novel is really good and they want to publish it, without copyright they'd just do that, totally swamping me with their clout and punishing my ever putting the work out. That's a bad thing.

Why? You created influential art and its influence was spread. Is that not the point of (good) art?

replies(2): >>43963507 #>>43963598 #
2. SketchySeaBeast ◴[] No.43963507[source]
> The rights holder and the author are almost never the same entity in commercial artistic endeavors.

There's definitely problems with corporatization of ownership of these things, I won't disagree.

> Why? You created influential art and its influence was spread. Is that not the point of (good) art?

Why do we expect artists to be selfless? Do you think Stephen King is still writing only because he loves the art? You don't simply make software because you love it, right? Should people not be able to make money off their effort?

replies(1): >>43964761 #
3. noirscape ◴[] No.43963598[source]
It may surprise you, but artists need to buy things like food, water and pay for their basic necessities like electricity, rent and taxes. Otherwise they die or go bankrupt.

In our current society, that means they need some sort of means to make money from their work. Copyright, at least in theory, exists to incentivize the creation of art by protecting an artists ability to monetize it.

If you abolish copyright today, under our current economic framework, what will happen is that people create less art because it goes from a (semi-)viable career to just being completely worthless to pursue. It's simply not a feasible option unless you fundamentally restructure society (which is a different argument entirely.)

replies(1): >>43964726 #
4. Zambyte ◴[] No.43964726[source]
Amazing. Have you considered reading the articles I linked? They aren't even that long.
replies(1): >>43974756 #
5. Zambyte ◴[] No.43964761[source]
> You don't simply make software because you love it, right?

I can't speak for Stephen but I absolutely do. I program for fun all the time.

> Should people not be able to make money off their effort?

Is anyone arguing otherwise?

replies(1): >>43965549 #
6. SketchySeaBeast ◴[] No.43965549{3}[source]
Removing copyright is removing a lot of the protections that enable users to get paid for their efforts. How would a novelist make money, and why would someone pay them, if their work is free to be copied at will?
replies(1): >>43966039 #
7. Zambyte ◴[] No.43966039{4}[source]
> How would a novelist make money

Maybe selling books? Maybe other jobs? The same way that they made money for thousands of years before copyright, really. Books and other arts did exist before copyright!

> and why would someone pay them, if their work is free to be copied at will?

I don't think it's really a matter of if people will pay them. If their art is good, of course people will pay them. People feel good about paying for an original piece of art.

The question is really more about if people will be able to get obscenely rich over being the original creator of some piece of art, to which the answer is it would indeed be less likely.

replies(1): >>43966359 #
8. SketchySeaBeast ◴[] No.43966359{5}[source]
> The same way that they made money for thousands of years before copyright, really.

We didn't have modern novelists a thousand years ago. We didn't have mass production until ~500 years ago, and copyright came in in the 1700's. We didn't have mass produced pulp fiction like we do today until the 20th century. There is little copyright-less historical precedent to refer to here, even if we carve out the few hundred years between the printing press and copyright, it's not as though everyone was mass consuming novels, the literacy rate was abysmal. I wonder what artist yearns for the 1650s.

> If their art is good, of course people will pay them.

You say this as if it were a fact, but that's not axiomatic. Once the first copy is in the wild it's fair game for anyone to copy it as they will. Who is paying them? Should the artists return to the days of needing a wealthy patron? Is patreon the answer to all of our problems?

> Maybe selling books?

But how? To who? A publishing house isn't going to pick them up, knowing that any other publishing house can start selling the same book the minute it shows to be popular, and if you're self publishing and you're starting to make good numbers then the publishing houses can eat you alive.

> The question is really more about if people will be able to get obscenely rich over being the original creator of some piece of art, to which the answer is it would indeed be less likely.

No, the question is if ordinary people could make a living off their novels without copyright. It's very hard today, but not impossible. Without copyright it wouldn't be.

9. noirscape ◴[] No.43974756{3}[source]
I did and they aren't convincing. The first is an argument of how a popular interpretation of a work still under copyright can subsume the fact the original work is in the public domain, using Alice in Wonderland as an example. (I also happen to think it's a particularly terrible example - if you want to make this argument, The Little Mermaid is by far the stronger version of this argument.) It also misidentifies Disney as the copyright boogeyman, which is a pretty common categorical error. (Disney had very little to do with the length of US copyright. The length of copyright is pretty much entirely the product of geopolitics and international agreements, not Disney.) Its an interesting argument, but not one I find particularly convincing for abolishing copyright, at most shortening the length of it. (Which I do believe is needed.)

The second one is the "just solve capitalism and we can abolish copyright entirely" argument which is... a total non-starter. Yes, in an idealized utopia, we don't need capitalism or copyright and people can do things just because they want to and society provides for the artist just because humans all value art just that much. It's a fun utopic ideal, but there's many steps between the current state of the world and "you can abolish the idea of copyright", and we aren't even close to that state yet.