←back to thread

123 points eterm | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.198s | source
Show context
palata ◴[] No.43925550[source]
I used to be very active on StackOverflow, it was a great platform.

After a while, I stopped having to post questions about "common frameworks", either because I could do with the official docs of because there was already a StackOverflow answer for my question.

What was becoming more common was that I would have a question similar to an existing unanswered one. Or that my question would never receive an answer (presumably because my questions were becoming more tricky/niche). So what I started doing was answering my own question (or answering those existing unanswered ones) after solving it on my own. Still, it was fine and I was contributing.

And for some reason, a few years ago my questions started being closed for no apparent reason other than "those who reviewed it have no clue and think that it is invalid". Many times they closed even though I had posted both the question and the answer at the same time (as a way to help others)! The first few times, I fought to get my question reopened and guess what? They all got a few tens of votes in the following year. Not so useless, eh?

Still, that toxic moderation hasn't changed. If anything, it has gotten worse. So I stopped contributing to StackOverflow entirely. If I find information there, that's great, if not, I won't go and add it once I find a solution for myself. I am usually better off opening an issue or discussion directly with the upstream project, bypassing StackOverflow's moderation.

I heard people mentioning that LLMs were hurting StackOverflow badly. I'm here to say that what pushed me away was the toxic moderation, not LLMs.

replies(11): >>43925615 #>>43925635 #>>43925672 #>>43925770 #>>43925812 #>>43925847 #>>43925920 #>>43926032 #>>43926167 #>>43926867 #>>43926962 #
esafak ◴[] No.43925615[source]
The moderators were elected. What should StackOverflow have done, held a vote of no confidence? Given them less power; make moderation more democratic?
replies(10): >>43925641 #>>43925662 #>>43925721 #>>43925726 #>>43925734 #>>43925802 #>>43925837 #>>43925905 #>>43925935 #>>43927665 #
fiskfiskfisk ◴[] No.43925721[source]
In my own experience it's not often the elected moderators that are the problem, but those with a golden tag in a specific tag. They're far too eager to close questions because they're the ones culling through a tag often - and then close the question as they quickly think "oh, it's that again".

But it often isn't, they just didn't spend enough time to see nuance.

And neither do they see that even if _they_ understand that the question linked to is the same thing, there is no way the asker can understand what the similarity is from their knowledge point of view (or why the linked duplicate question is the same question).

replies(2): >>43925775 #>>43927840 #
esafak ◴[] No.43925775[source]
How do you think they should have handled closing questions, if at all?
replies(2): >>43925886 #>>43929897 #
bombcar ◴[] No.43925886[source]
Why close questions? Is there a limit on storage space?

dang doesn't go and delete all the infinite failed submissions to HN, after all.

replies(2): >>43927880 #>>43928757 #
shagie ◴[] No.43928757[source]
Should all 10,000 questions ( https://stackoverflow.com/questions/linked/218384?lq=1 ) that are duplicates of https://stackoverflow.com/questions/218384/what-is-a-nullpoi... be open and still allow people to try to answer each instance of the person's question?
replies(1): >>43932066 #
zahlman ◴[] No.43932066[source]
Heh, I hadn't realized the infamous null pointer/reference question was that well cited. The most egregious cases in the Python tag only have about 3500 (https://stackoverflow.com/questions/20109391) and 1500 (https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1373164/) links respectively.

... Okay, I want to walk back something I said in some other comments here. There is definitely a class of SO questions that get closed as duplicates inappropriately. I tend to forget about the first of the questions because it's not generally a suitable dupe target when it's used: it's a meta question, explaining how to fix your question, rather than actually answering it. But, as you might infer, that means your question should still be closed - it lacks debugging details.

I fought against this trend on meta: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/426205 . Unfortunately, there's another incentive misalignment here: dupe-hammering the question allows users with a gold badge to act more quickly on questions that don't meet site standards but are likely to attract a quick answer that interferes with keeping the site clean.

The second one... honestly probably isn't the best version of the question, but it's attracted good answers and become "canonical". The problem is that thinking in terms of "variable variables" isn't necessarily the right way to think about the problem (dynamically modifying namespaces; or rather, the fact that Python's namespaces are reflected as objects that can in most cases be modified meaningfully) - but it does map pretty well to how a beginner would typically think about the problem. It just tends to overlap with other reasonable questions in a messy way.

On Codidact, I've attempted to address the problem space more proactively, but I think I didn't complete the project I had in mind.

replies(1): >>43932423 #
1. shagie ◴[] No.43932423[source]
https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/262080/ has a data point in time when it could have been done...

> How much traffic do the questions that get duped to something bring? Especially the (currently) 410 questions linked to the Java NPE question. You get the couple of FGITW answers on it and the answer is over there, and closed to keep more people from trying to answer it (I hope the dup hammer is helping)... but now it's a closed question with 0 score, 100 views after a year... and five answers (one of which was accepted)... and no one will ever find it.

That was in 2014.

---

There are some misaligned incentives. There are probably people who dup vote to try to boost their reputation for some reason.

The problem (as I saw it) was that the tools of moderation and curation had too much friction and limits placed on them.

As the number of questions grew faster than the people who would curate them did, and the tools to curate them were diminished... you've got the problem of "there are two tools to curate and moderate left. One is to close the question. The other is to be a jerk to try to disincentivize the person from doing that again." I wrote about the second bit... a few years ago. Rudeness – the moderation tool of last resort -- https://shagie.net/2016/09/16/rudeness-the-moderation-tool-o...

Things like making it harder to not see low quality questions, or close them, or delete them...

> Thus rudeness and the attempt to drive an individual away because other moderation tools have run out or are ineffective. Rudeness is the moderation tool of last resort. When one sees the umteenth “how do I draw a pyramid with *” in the first week of classes on a programming site – how does one make it go away when the moderation tools have been fully exhausted? Be rude and hope that the next person seeing it won’t post the umteenth+1 one.

With respect to Stack Overflow, I believe that they've exhausted the people capable of doing moderating without rudeness and are now employees trying to moderate the core group rather than the core group empowered to moderate the site. Eventually, there will be no more left in the core group.

Other sites, with a narrower focus (e.g. GitHub discussions) are more able to handle the better focused questions and smaller user bases.