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760 points coloneltcb | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0.397s | source
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hayst4ck ◴[] No.43799701[source]
Reason and truth are the enemy of authoritarian regimes. They want you to believe that truth is subjective. Truth and reason provide alternative legitimacy to authority. If nothing is true, there is no basis on which to judge those in power.

There is a long legacy of authoritarian regimes attacking curious places, universities, historians, museums, books or any institution that grounds itself in reality which provides you a way to reasonably criticize authoritarian actions. Many authortarian regimes will "purge" as many of the country's intellectuals as they are able.

Wikipedia is absolutely the enemy of this administration and authoritarians everywhere in the world would love to see it's demise or collapse into chaos.

Whether the Wikipedia page for Israel says Gaza is a genocide or not, or that it's an ongoing debate matters. It matters because it influences what people think and therefore what they consent to or what they deem worth fighting for or applying resources to and that goes for just about any issue out there. If you can't read about the suffering that racism has caused, then how bad is racism really? If there are no examples of successful labor movements, then why would you hopelessly start one?

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emacsen ◴[] No.43799953[source]
Aren't you making their point though?

The ADL and other Jewish organizations have pointed out that aside from articles about Israel that articles about or mention Jewish topics generally have been editing with disinformation or that made Jews out to be the aggressors.

I agree with you that in order to believe in the ideals of liberal democracy that we must have a core belief in truth. And it's absolutely true that the Trump administration has taken a position that is deeply chilling on the issue of speech. It's clear they want to be the sole arbiters of what "truth" is and they want to use their power to manipulate the reality.

All that said, I cannot as a Jew ignore the fact that Wikipedia is not in itself neutral, and that "more eyes" does not negate systemic bias. What I've seen as a Jew is what the true meaning of marginalized minority is, which is to say that if you are truly a minority and truly marginalized then in a vote of "truth", your reality will be dismissed if it conflicts with the vast majority, and that Jews are only 0.2% of the world population.

While I brought it up, I am not debating the issue of antisemitic bias in Wikipedia[1] as anything other than an illustration of your point of objective truth being true, but also that we can't simply rely on the wisdom of the crowd to materialize that truth.

To preemptively address the issue that's bound to come up when I post this- I'm not arguing that the evils of silencing the entire Wikipedia project are equal to or a fair response to Wikipedia's antisemitic bias. I do believe Wikipedia needs to address its bias problem and that's best done through internal reform.

Two wrongs don't make a right, nor are two wrongs always of equal weight.

[1] Firstly because my point is separate, and secondly because I've encountered the exact issues I've found in Wikipedia elsewhere, which is why I'm sure I'll be voted down.

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moshegramovsky ◴[] No.43800113[source]
I agree 100%. It's exhausting fighting against antisemitic bias, and it feels like it's everywhere these days. My problem with Ed Martin is that what he is doing is clearly wrong. Hannah Arendt wrote a book about people like him.
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giraffe_lady ◴[] No.43800155[source]
Could one of you point me to antisemitic bias on wikipedia just so I have a concrete example at hand?
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emacsen ◴[] No.43800257[source]
Basically, almost any time Zionists are mentioned, they're mentioned in a negative light and with genuine disinformation, such as that Zionism is the belief that Arabs needs to be destroyed. That is like saying the Civil Rights movement in the US was about killing white people.

They also position things in such a way that implies antisemitic things, such as saying that Zionism is only 200 years old, or discussing the Israel wars only or primarily through an Arab lens.

These biases around Jewish topics are small individually but large in aggregate, especially in how they present Jews and Jewish topics.

Multiple Jewish and civil rights organizations have done a more comprehensive job at discussing this, even organizations who don't usually agree on things. While they talk about "anti-Israel bias" Wikipedia articles on or mentioning Zionism (80% of Jews are Zionist) are IMHO just as, if not more damaging, and demonstrate the issue.

Most importantly though, talk to the Jews in your life about this. They will tell you.

https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/wikipedia-entrie...

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-846563

https://cameraoncampus.org/blog/seven-tactics-wikipedia-edit...

https://www.adl.org/resources/report/editing-hate-how-anti-i...

https://www.standwithus.com/post/it-s-time-to-correct-wikipe...

https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-edit...

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1. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43800993[source]
>Basically, almost any time Zionists are mentioned, they're mentioned in a negative light and with genuine disinformation,

Your first statement is a sweeping generalization that you can't prove

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2. bawolff ◴[] No.43801207[source]
I don't know if that statement is true or not, but it certainly seems like a specific enough statement that could be proved or disproved given enough effort.