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207 points gnabgib | 7 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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nomilk ◴[] No.43748605[source]
> The (pro democracy) protesters were met with severe repression, and in November 2020, Prime Minister Prayuth ordered authorities to bring back the enforcement of lèse-majesté, or Section 112 of the Criminal Code, which criminalizes “insulting the monarchy”. Thailand’s use of lèse-majesté has been both arbitrary and prolific; protesters can be arrested for as little as sharing social media posts that are ‘insulting to the monarchy’. Furthermore, the weaponization of lèse-majesté has devastating consequences: those convicted under Section 112 face three to 15 years in prison per count.
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colechristensen ◴[] No.43749049[source]
Absurd and not at all surprising today. And large sections of many populations do not care because their ideology aligns with whoever is doing the abuse of basic freedoms.
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foxglacier ◴[] No.43749530[source]
Exactly. In New Zealand I got a visit from the police because of something I said on social media. It wasn't an offence, it just made them suspicious so they questioned me then went away. But some western countries are even worse and do imprison people for quite long sentences (sometime years) for saying politically wrong ideas on social media - UK is most notorious for this but it's well supported by the population who mostly just wants to punish anyone who disagrees with their politics.
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mjburgess ◴[] No.43749848[source]
Can you provide an example of a single case where the UK has imprisoned people for political expression on social media?

As far as I can tell this is just far-right propaganda to disguise what actually happened -- which is the UK imprisoning people for conspiracies to burn down hotels with immigrants in them; or participating in on-going violent riots by calling for various buildings to be attacked or people to be murdered.

This speech isnt covered by free expression, and is a crime in all countries, including the US.

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Dachande663 ◴[] No.43750093[source]
I’m guessing this[0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_joke_trial

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mjburgess ◴[] No.43750352[source]
There are a couple of cases like this, including one about some racist remarks in liverpool -- both were overturned on appeal.

> Chambers appealed against the Crown Court decision to the High Court, which would ultimately quash the conviction.

These are absolutely trivial cases to assume that somehow the UK has suspended the free expression rights of its citizens. These amount to over-reach by the lowest courts (staffed by volunteer judges, fyi) which were corrected. That's about as good as justice is in practice.

(It's also an unaddressed issue on exactly what social media is -- people tend to assume its some private conversation, but its at least as plausible to treat it as a acts of publishing to a public environment. When those actions constitue attacks on people, the UK/Europe have typically regarded public attacks as having fewer free expression protections).

Neverthless, these cases are used by the far right online to disguise what has been action taken by the UK gov against far right quasi-terrorist groups engaged in mass violence. The UK gov is not persecuting people for free expression, they have taken action against people using social media to organise murder.

One should be careful to note where this perception of UK speech laws is coming from. It's not free speech classical liberals.

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SnazzyUncle ◴[] No.43750781[source]
This framing of yours is entirely disingenuous.

This subject is always framed by people like yourself as being all about the far-right racists and somewhat recent riots, when it has been going on a lot longer than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United...

Are you really going to defend the conviction of a teenage girl quoting Snoop Dogg lyrics on facebook?

While the punishments were light typically (usually fines). Many of these cases can end up with time in prison.

Then there is the communications act:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Act_2003#Malici...

Man was prosecuted because he sent a drunk tweet:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/bad-tweet-uk-sir-tom-...

You are defending these these awful laws. There a plenty of cases that I've forgotten about because quite frankly there are so many.

> One should be careful to note where this perception of UK speech laws is coming from. It's not free speech classical liberals.

This is disingenuous. Firstly, it doesn't matter who the criticism is coming from if it is valid (which it is). Secondly you can see there are plenty of well know public figures that aren't far right that have criticised the current laws in the link to the selected cases, these include MPs, Comedians and Well known authors.

e.g.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51j64lk2l8o

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/yorkshire-mp-philip-da...

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bombcar ◴[] No.43750801[source]
It's also ignoring that the entire process of being charged with a crime is punishment itself - even if never convicted, even if overturned on appeal.

If you've never been involved in court proceedings it will come as a surprise.

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mjburgess ◴[] No.43750995[source]
OK, so reflecting on the world at the moment. Do you want the police to suspend investigating all complaints involving social media, or to continue to investigate them?

If you choose the first one, then you're preventing the investigation of mass riots, conspiracy to murder, mass disruption of public infrastructure -- and so on. All which have happened in the last 9mo, and gone through the courts. BUT you do have the advantage that police wont, once in a blue moon, turn up to someone's house and investigae them for a bit of nonesense that disappears within a day or at most a month when a real judge has looked at the case.

If you choose two, then you can still offer guidance to local police forces to be more careful in assessing complaints -- guidance which has almost certainly been given, since the gov arent happy theyre being distracted with this BS.

Now ask yourself: who at the moment really wants option number 1?

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SnazzyUncle ◴[] No.43751162[source]
> OK, so reflecting on the world at the moment. Do you want the police to suspend investigating all complaints involving social media, or to continue to investigate them?

Yes. I do. I want them to put resources into catch the criminals in my area that have been stealing motor vehicles instead as that actually affect me and my community. Not policing social media.

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mjburgess ◴[] No.43751269[source]
The criminals in your area are probably plotting those thefts on whatsapp.

I dont know what century you think this is, if you're sincere about catching criminals you would want even more intrusion into online spaces.

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1. bombcar ◴[] No.43751340[source]
Why is everyone assuming the police should be policing pre-crime?
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2. mjburgess ◴[] No.43751398[source]
No one's talking about pre-crime. I'm talking about crime.

It's a crime to conspire to murder; to commit fraud; to arrange an act of terrorism; and so on. And in all relevant cases, social media was used in court after-the-fact just as evidence.

So we're talking about activity on social media which are crimes themselves, just being used as evidence after other crimes have been committed.

This is the problem with the propaganda being put out there at the moment, none of it is true -- and all of it is in the service of disgusing the content of actual court cases.

People on the far-right like to use the phrase "posting to social media" when they mean "using online communication platforms to arrange a violent riot with the intent to murder people". And they like to pretend this evidence collection is happening before those actions -- when its after, and presented in court.

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3. SnazzyUncle ◴[] No.43751493[source]
Is the "far right" in the room now with you now? When have you dealt with any of the "far right". How do you know they really exist? Most of the people I've encountered on the far right have been losers that literally live with their mother or edgy teenagers trolling people online.

It is you my friend that has been propagandised. They always point at a scary person and then say that they need to take away your rights and your privacy.

> It's a crime to conspire to murder; to commit fraud; to arrange an act of terrorism; and so on. And in all relevant cases, social media was used in court after-the-fact just as evidence.

Why should I lose privacy and my ability to speak freely because someone else committed an unrelated crime?

Why does this require mass surveillance, when they can get a warrant to search their electronic devices?

The answer is I shouldn't.

> So we're talking about activity on social media which are crimes themselves, just being used as evidence after other crimes have been committed.

Some of this activity that are crimes is making edgy comments on twitter while drunk and then deleting it the next day. That is illegal under the communications act of 2003.

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4. mjburgess ◴[] No.43751654{3}[source]
The far right have just recently put ~130 unknowns into black vans, on to plans, to be sold into slavery in an elsavadorian prison. Of the two we have information on, both are legal residents of their own country. Of the rest, all we know is that they are innocent before the law, since theyve had no trial.

The oligarch who presently threatens the legislature of the largest democracy in the world with being having their opponents funded at the primary stage -- is also the same person who has had 100,000s of legal employees of the government fired and who has prompted these stories about the UK on the world's most imporatnt political media platform, that he owns. He did so after riots took place in the UK whose aim was to murder immigrants who had been falsely accused of crimes, these accusations also spread by the very same oligarch.

There's a line from the person trying to burn down a hotel with immigrants inside, in the UK, to social media, to the enslavement of unknown persons in the US. That line we call "the far right" and it's a pretty small group, at the top.

I cannot really grasp how a person would be confused by who the far right are and at the same time have at their fingertips news stories about girls in liverpool. One has to imagine you aren't really being serious.

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5. SnazzyUncle ◴[] No.43751733{4}[source]
This is exhausting. Now you are bringing up US politics. We are talking about the UK and the UK law.

I have linked you the communications act of 2003, I have linked you examples of cases where people have be prosecuted for speech and you are going on about the current Administration in the United States which is on the other-side of an ocean.

I am asking you when have you met someone in real life that is "far right"? You are unlikely to have done so because there is maybe a few thousand at most in a country of 80 million people.

I have seen the leaked membership details of the BNP. Do you know how many people were in the BNP? IIRC it was less than 500 people for the entire UK.

You are talking as if there are Brown Shirts marching up every UK high street.

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6. bombcar ◴[] No.43753610{5}[source]
The boogeymans are going to get control of the government! To stop them we better give the government all the tools needed to monitor everything at all times!

Boogeymans win an election. And gain all the tools needed.

Surprised picachu face as the kids say, I believe.

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7. SnazzyUncle ◴[] No.43755872{6}[source]
Yep. It is honestly tiresome. It is the same bad arguments are repeated ad-nauseam. The UK government and various public entities have been repeatedly shown to abuse the powers given to them.

It doesn't matter if you show all the times it was abused, or someone life has been ruined for because they drunkely said something stupid on facebook, it is just ignored or if it later gets overturned that it is no big deal even though they had to spent months or years dealing with the legal system.

I have spoken to a lot of young people (typically men) in their 20s that just want to leave the country because they can see where this is all going.

Anyway my top comment has been made dead. I hate this site.