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207 points gnabgib | 43 comments | | HN request time: 1.782s | source | bottom
1. silexia ◴[] No.43748401[source]
The bigger government gets, the less freedoms the people have. It is critically important not to ask government to solve problems (government is bad at solving most problems), and to seek ways to shrink government.
replies(6): >>43748421 #>>43748433 #>>43748440 #>>43748459 #>>43748471 #>>43752284 #
2. okayishdefaults ◴[] No.43748421[source]
How do you know when it's small enough?
replies(2): >>43749142 #>>43750207 #
3. lovich ◴[] No.43748440[source]
> (government is bad at solving most problems)

I reject the implication, that corporations are always better at solving most problems.

> and to seek ways to shrink government.

Id rather seek ways to maximize liberty, and while they frequently can mean limiting the government, the act of shrinking the government is not _necessary_, and even works against my goals if the government is the one keeping my liberty maximized

replies(7): >>43748530 #>>43748720 #>>43749519 #>>43750169 #>>43750197 #>>43752779 #>>43760973 #
4. jimbob45 ◴[] No.43748459[source]
What you’re saying is broadly true but my understanding is that the Thai government is dysfunctional in an Emperor Nero sort of way.
replies(1): >>43748527 #
5. steve_adams_86 ◴[] No.43748469[source]
I agree and disagree. Some things make sense to centralize. Some things maybe less.

I’m glad Canada is talking about centralizing how trade is managed, for example. I think it’ll be good for us in the long run. Yet I don’t think food security is best accomplished through centralized farming practices. Distribution of these systems may be slightly less efficient, but I think that’s a price worth paying in the longer term. Especially as we need to worry more about climate change which can have localized impacts.

It’s a complex matter. We shouldn’t hesitate to centralize when it makes sense. But we should be careful, too. Centralization comes with drawbacks, no matter what. They won’t always be easy to anticipate.

replies(2): >>43748574 #>>43750234 #
6. ◴[] No.43748471[source]
7. speakfreely ◴[] No.43748514[source]
I'm giving you an upvote because I am 51% sure that was just good trolling.
replies(1): >>43748578 #
8. speakfreely ◴[] No.43748527[source]
Are you referring to Air Marshal Fufu? The wiki article does not disappoint.
9. MarcelOlsz ◴[] No.43748574{3}[source]
It is an incredibly easy matter. Most people I know don't care for grinding because it doesn't earn more happiness. The few that do, are privileged software engineers making 300k+ so it makes sense for them to grind it out and be set for life and even they can quickly acknowledge that again, it doesn't bring more happiness. Most people I know are far more motivated to do things for common good, whether its limited to their friends circle or community and have no incentive to grind for a boss.

There is no logical or humane reason to keep working as much as we do. You want to be competitive join a sports league or something. If you want to question why would anyone do what I suggested you can just go to github.com and see millions of altruists doing it for free. A clear example of humanity trying to break free held down by a vast swathe of wretches of would-be millionaires and current billionaires.

It is impossible for me to entertain anything related to conserving any part of the status quo while I still have to work 40+ hours a week. It is a complete shit show and we've made no progress in the past 250 years except a couple apps and other bullshit "technology" with meaningful tech being an absolute drop in an infinite ocean of shit. How embarrassing for all of us.

replies(1): >>43748718 #
10. MarcelOlsz ◴[] No.43748578{3}[source]
I was half joking and making a reference to his silly small government comment but I do absolutely believe in nationalizing the tits out of everything. My dream is to walk into a grocery store and everything is the best it can be, with identical labelling, no marketing, and all the information I want about it. "SALT". "WATER". Any positive iteration should lead to reward and absorption by my fictional state. I've probably read too much sci fi.
replies(2): >>43749629 #>>43750112 #
11. steve_adams_86 ◴[] No.43748718{4}[source]
How does centralizing and nationalizing innately lead to less of a grind? I wasn’t thinking about that aspect when I wrote my comment.

Life seems like work to me. I think I live in a country that’s fortunate enough to get to believe otherwise, but when we factor in all of the externalities of our goods and services, there’s a tremendous amount of work and environmental debt (future labour) occurring. If I’m not working 40+ hours per week for the insane quality of life I have, someone is now or eventually.

replies(1): >>43748775 #
12. godelski ◴[] No.43748720[source]

  > I reject the implication, that corporations are always better at solving most problems.
If anything, businesses just turn into entities indistinguishable from governments as they grow. It would be weird if anything different happened. They're long living entities with massive populations. Should be unsurprising that they converge to similar solutions. But I think the key difference is corporations have fewer incentives to care about the general public (take what you will about government incentives to care about the public but certainly corporations have less incentives. It's much rarer for public to storm into a corporate headquarters with the intent to take it over)
replies(2): >>43748950 #>>43752148 #
13. MarcelOlsz ◴[] No.43748775{5}[source]
If this system subsumes successful iterations it becomes more efficient. I would prefer a system that spreads out and flattens the profit curve. If you want to be a big genius and have a house 5x bigger than any in your community then you should actually work for it. Join the toilet paper co-op or whatever the fuck and iterate. I would like to see "risk" entirely eliminated. You either work your job, or you apply for a grant.

Risk is a stupid thing. There are plenty of insanely smart people who will not rock the boat because they do not want to undertake risk and so we lose out on their productivity. We've created a thunderdome where only the most callous and pathological survive and win, anyone else gets crushed.

>If I’m not working 40+ hours per week for the insane quality of life I have, someone is now or eventually.

We are living inside of the externality of a small group of peoples pathologies.

replies(1): >>43753920 #
14. djmips ◴[] No.43748950{3}[source]
Yeah, aren't most businesses kind of like dictatorships, perhaps oligarchies but employees don't have a vote anyway. It's no surprise that if Trump and Musk want to run the USA as a business it kind of looks like that.
replies(1): >>43756674 #
15. bilbo0s ◴[] No.43749142[source]
HN User Silexia will tell you of course.
replies(1): >>43752165 #
16. jdasdf ◴[] No.43749519[source]
>I reject the implication, that corporations are always better at solving most problems.

The only person mentioning corporations was you.

replies(1): >>43750137 #
17. lazide ◴[] No.43749629{4}[source]
Why would anything there be ‘the best it can be’ in that scenario?
replies(1): >>43749965 #
18. homarp ◴[] No.43749965{5}[source]
can linux kernel code be 'the best it can be'?
replies(1): >>43750171 #
19. ◴[] No.43750112{4}[source]
20. StefanBatory ◴[] No.43750137{3}[source]
There is no alternative. Governement, or corporations. Choose one.
replies(1): >>43750210 #
21. potato3732842 ◴[] No.43750169[source]
The fact that your knee jerk response was to put words in his mouth, specifically the ones you chose, and then claim you stand for liberty really casts a lot of doubt on that second part.

Nowhere did he say corporations would be doing everything. There were a whole plethora of organizations and institutions (social clubs, religious adjacent institutions, etc) that used do do a lot of the public good type stuff and have fallen by the wayside or become indistinguishable from government contractors over the past 100yr as high touch western governments have usurped and stuck their noses in their functions.

replies(1): >>43754353 #
22. lazide ◴[] No.43750171{6}[source]
because people are allowed to fix their own issues, and also allowed to put their name on their work in the public eye.

neither, generally, would be possible in the scenario you describe.

replies(1): >>43750297 #
23. redeeman ◴[] No.43750197[source]
> if the government is the one keeping my liberty maximized

yeah.... but its not :)

replies(1): >>43754373 #
24. redeeman ◴[] No.43750207[source]
when it fears what I and my neighbors will do to it. When it personally thinks about its accountability to the people around it, on firstname basis, any time it even considers spending money.
25. lupusreal ◴[] No.43750210{4}[source]
There in fact are many forms of community organization which are neither government nor corporation.
replies(1): >>43751671 #
26. lupusreal ◴[] No.43750234{3}[source]
Maximally efficient food production and distribution is definitely not what anybody should want. Redundancy and stockpiles aren't efficient but are good for food security. Efficiency comes with fragility, which risks famine should anything ever go wrong.
27. homarp ◴[] No.43750297{7}[source]
please note that I am not OP.

How about 'generic' drugs? are they the best 'manufactured' they can be?

replies(1): >>43750307 #
28. lazide ◴[] No.43750307{8}[source]
Generally?

No. But will meet regulatory minimums insofar as active ingredients, purity, etc.

They don’t have a monopoly like the OP described, however. If they did? Yikes…

Notably, that kind of economy is roughly how the USSR ran, and no one praised it when it died.

29. Joker_vD ◴[] No.43751671{5}[source]
Those forms cannot really compete with the neighbouring (or even overseas) nation-states. Look no further than the history of the North America and Australia after the Europeans discovered those continents.
replies(1): >>43755880 #
30. silexia ◴[] No.43752148{3}[source]
Corporations are only long lived when protected by artificial monopolies like parents, government regulations, or too big to fail bailouts. With full competition, corporations stay lean and die regularly. That is much healthier than the oligarchies created by government interference that we have today worldwide in capitalism.
31. silexia ◴[] No.43752165{3}[source]
Glad to assist!
32. JTbane ◴[] No.43752284[source]
Disagree, some programs that people call "big government" (such as Social Security, SNAP, etc) are a net good
33. testing22321 ◴[] No.43752779[source]
The US gives us the perfect sandpit to test this theory.

Their healthcare provided by corporations is vastly more expensive and has much worse outcomes than healthcare provided to billions of people by governments.

Same for higher education.

replies(1): >>43752873 #
34. dragonwriter ◴[] No.43752873{3}[source]
But US healthcare is also vastly more expensive and has worse outcomes than healthcare provided privately in much of the developed world; most of the developed world doesn't use sole government provision, and much doesn't use sole government funding; lots of places have private providers and private insurance with a government backstop (conceptually like the US system, but without the holes.)
35. freedomben ◴[] No.43753920{6}[source]
Your ideas sound interesting, but what do you do when everyone decides to take a "risk" and become an artist? Or a musician? How do you incentivize someone to be a garbage man or a sewage worker?
replies(1): >>43754908 #
36. lovich ◴[] No.43754353{3}[source]
Yea but see, I have the benefit of having had this conversation with someone making the same argument a million times times in the past.

If you want to claim he’s going down a different path you or they could make that argument, and I am going to tell you that if you want to make a claim using the beginning of a well worn argument and not include information on why your position is materially different, then you don’t get to be upset when people make assumptions

37. lovich ◴[] No.43754373{3}[source]
Yea but it is. My bosses would have treated me significantly worse for the majority of my working life if not for government intervention.

I know this because they paid me the legal minimum and only provided workplace safety as much as they felt compelled to by the government.

The corporate boot tastes no better than the federal one

replies(1): >>43756872 #
38. MarcelOlsz ◴[] No.43754908{7}[source]
Thank you. I will think about this and get back to you.
39. lupusreal ◴[] No.43755880{6}[source]
I'm not suggesting that we have charity run aircraft carriers, nor a corporate Navy either for that matter. There are nonetheless many functions of government which can be performed by community organizations, particularly at the local level, where the problems are the most tractable and where people are most likely to perceive a sense of responsibility and get involved.

I'll give a concrete example: I don't think the government needs to be in the business of organizing youth football. Many sports get by just fine with sports teams organized, funded and run by volunteers. Youth baseball is usually this way; organized by dads and perhaps partially funded by local pizza shops (too corporate? Essentially harmless.) Football though is organized through school districts, funded by property owners paying their taxes. This isn't necessary.

40. godelski ◴[] No.43756674{4}[source]
Certainly most businesses do not work like democracies (even representative democracies). More so, it isn't like many CEOs are afraid to admit that they run their businesses like a dictatorship or in an authoritarian manner.[0]

This is why it has always scared me when people have said "run the government like a business." I don't want to live in a monarchy/dictatorship/oligarcy/plutocracy/etc. I don't want government decisions to be based on "shareholders" views. That just sounds like Plutocracy. I want a government to be representative, to care not just for the rich and powerful, but the weakest. If we judge a man by how he treats those he has nothing to gain from then we judge a government by how it treats its poorest and worst off citizens. I don't care about a ceiling inasmuch as I care about a floor.

[0] I also don't quite understand why people are so hostile to employee owned organizations or even organizations where there is still a clear hierarchy but shares are distributed more liberally or any such systems are employed that allow for employees to more directly participate. There's a wide range of solutions between total dictatorship and complete socialist style equality.

41. redeeman ◴[] No.43756872{4}[source]
you do know that you are free to not work there, right?
replies(1): >>43759244 #
42. lovich ◴[] No.43759244{5}[source]
I was free to not work for an employer who would treat me that way in the same way the the rich and poor are both equally barred from sleeping under bridges
43. dennis_jeeves2 ◴[] No.43760973[source]
>I reject the implication, that corporations are always better at solving most problems

(s)he did not imply corporations.