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OsrsNeedsf2P ◴[] No.43744799[source]
Sometimes I wonder why there isn't more enthusiasm around theming. Chicago95[0] is popular, but I also love how Garuda[0] themes KDE. There's some small websites for downloading themes on various DEs, but most of them are a bit jank and it seems built-in support beyond basic things like accents aren't there.

[0] https://github.com/grassmunk/Chicago95 [1] https://garudalinux.org/editions (screenshots don't do it justice)

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WD-42 ◴[] No.43744959[source]
The Gnome/gtk folks have been systematically removing theming capabilities for the last decade+ in the pursuit of an Apple-like philosophy towards ui. This has really killed a lot of theming because so many apps use GTK.
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gnomeluvscorpo ◴[] No.43745295[source]
Perhaps with all these changes to GUI since initial Shell release their goal is to enter some niche mobile market and call job done. Because nothing else explains all this interface gutting out they did over 14 years.

Once they finish sucking donations and other forms of financial support they'll probably announce it's time to "sunset" Gnome/gtk because it sadly didn't met unspecified expectations of unspecified group of people.

Gnome team, what they did and what they still want to do, their attitude towards users - especially those who dare to criticize them is THE result of polluting FOSS with corporate style of software development.

Theming and customization of Linux is half-dead because of what happens at Gnome.

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aecsocket ◴[] No.43745931[source]
This opinion of "Gnome is killing customization" is something I see quite a lot, but which I think people take the wrong way. It's absolutely true that Gnome is designed to be less themeable than other DEs like KDE, or individual WMs - and by extension, GTK apps and apps designed to be used on Gnome are harder to customize/break more when you do theme them. But I disagree that "customization of Linux [being] half-dead" is a bad thing; on the contrary, I support the lack of theming options, and I like that there's someone on the Linux desktop that pushes this hard for consistency.

To make my biases clear: I'm a software developer that uses Gnome daily, and is developing a GTK/Adwaita app. I used to rice a lot back in the i3 days, but I don't particularly care about that nowadays, and stick to the defaults when I can. For my purposes, GNOME and Adwaita is perfect since it's very opinionated by default, and you can make good looking apps with minimal effort. Since all Adwaita apps are supposed to look similar and follow the same HIG, most of my desktop apps have the same look - but more importantly, the developers of the apps can also be confident that their apps look correct on my desktop. This is something that developers in the GTK space generally want, and for good reason[0].

One argument is that you as a user of the desktop should be able to have the final say on how your apps look, which is a totally valid take! And there are DEs, WMs, and apps which give you this freedom like Hyprland. But this doesn't guarantee that those apps will look good, or look consistent with each other, or even act consistently across apps. On the other hand, I as an app developer want to guarantee that my app looks good on your desktop, and the easiest way to achieve that is to target a single desktop environment, rather than an infinite combination of possibly-similar-but-maybe-completely-different desktops. Every preference has a cost[1][2], and when you take this philosophy beyond just preferences and expand it to color schemes, padding, margin, iconography, typography, it becomes unmanageable.

This isn't to say that GNOME is perfect, and I disagree with the project on some fundamental technical things like not supporting xdg-layer-shell[3], and refusing to accommodate server-side decorations for apps which don't want to render decorations themselves. (On the cultural side I can't comment, since I have no experience with that.) But in my opinion, this is the project that can deliver a usable and consistent Linux desktop to the average person the most effectively.

[0]: https://stopthemingmy.app/

[1]: https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2021/07/13/community-power-...

[2]: https://ometer.com/preferences.html

[3]: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/1141

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cosmic_cheese ◴[] No.43746012[source]
Much of the frustration inspired by GNOME/GTK’s unthemability comes down to not having a few very simple knobs for users to tweak. Point in case, one of the primary reasons I used to theme GNOME desktops was to clean up Adwaita’s padding, which is utterly egregious for desktop usage. If GNOME just had a padding slider with 3-5 notches that’d go a long way and wouldn’t impair developers’ ability to build consistent apps in the least. Affordances like these are rarely given however and have to be fought for.

Aside from that, consistency and themability are not at all mutually exclusive. Back in the early days of OS X, theming by hacking system resource files (or patching them in memory via haxies[0]) was quite popular and for the most part, worked very well — generally, the only apps that didn’t play nice with themes were those sitting in the uncanny valley between native and custom, using bits of both, which tended to not be the highest quality applications anyway. This was way before Apple started pushing devs to parameterize their apps, too, and so similar theming capabilities today would work even better since themes can just tweak the parameterized fonts, colors, etc as needed to maintain coherence and usablity.

The real problem with GNOME/GTK is simply that it wasn’t designed with user customization in mind even as a remote possibility. A UI framework that did keep these things in mind combined with a strong dev culture of parametrization would make for a desktop that’s both customizable and consistent.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsanity

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1. aecsocket ◴[] No.43746246[source]
Interesting, I didn't know there was a theming presence on OS X! I agree with you in that consistency and themability can exist together (and I suppose your example proves that), and that had GNOME decided to prioritize themability we could have had something like that on the Linux desktop. I suppose this is a question of priority and where to allocate effort, rather than what is technically possible and not. Building a UI framework and HIG is already not an easy task, and making it customizable in the way you describe would be an even bigger burden on developers - many of which are, I assume, doing this work for free. But admittedly I haven't looked much into GNOME's funding or organizational structure, so maybe they are capable of it, but just haven't bothered.