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1210 points jbegley | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.202s | source
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botanical ◴[] No.43661192[source]
If Apartheid South Africa could last just a little bit longer, they would still be an apartheid state like Israel is today.

Western media is just as complicit in this genocide as the fascists in charge of the Israeli government. And media are self-censoring which is reprehensible.

The idea of Hamas wouldn't exist if Gaza (and the West Bank) wasn't occupied by land, air and sea; their land stolen on a daily basis, and Palestinian people treated as subhuman animals.

replies(1): >>43661541 #
YZF ◴[] No.43661541[source]
Palestinian violence predates the 1967 and 1948. Also Gaza wasn't occupied since Israel left it in 2005.

Here's is one example from 1954 when Israel did not control Gaza or the West Bank: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27ale_Akrabim_massacre

"The Ma'ale Akrabim massacre, known in English as the Scorpions Pass Massacre, was an attack on an Israeli passenger bus, carried out on 17 March 1954, in the middle of the day. Eleven passengers were shot dead by the attackers who ambushed and boarded the bus. One passenger died 32 years later of his injuries, in a state of paralysis and partial consciousness. Four passengers survived, two of whom had been injured by the gunmen."

Palestinians are largely in the reality they're in due to the violence.

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defrost ◴[] No.43661578[source]
Can you remind us whether this bus attack in which 11 people died came before or after the 1948-1949 Plan Dalet during which over 500 Arab villages were destroyed or depopulated by military forces under the direction of later first prime minister of Israel David Ben-Gurion?

  The plan's tactics involved laying siege to Palestinian Arab villages, bombing neighbourhoods of cities, forced expulsion of their inhabitants, and setting fields and houses on fire and detonating TNT in the rubble to prevent any return. Zionist military units possessed detailed lists of neighborhoods and villages to be destroyed and their Arab inhabitants expelled.

  This strategy is subject to controversy, with some historians characterizing it as defensive, while others assert that it was an integral part of a planned strategy for the expulsion, sometimes called an ethnic cleansing, of the area's native inhabitants.  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

Israelis and Palestinians are largely in the reality they're in due to the violence.

replies(1): >>43661658 #
YZF ◴[] No.43661658[source]
Why are we moving the goal posts?

Parent claims the violence is simply due to:

"The idea of Hamas wouldn't exist if Gaza (and the West Bank) wasn't occupied by land, air and sea; their land stolen on a daily basis, and Palestinian people treated as subhuman animals."

This is not true. And this is what I'm addressing in my reply.

We can litigate 1948 as well. Plenty of Palestinian violence pre-1948. Their refusal to accept the UN's partition plan (which was a lot more generous than the two state solution people are talking about today).

EDIT: Also I hope you're not trying to say that Israel's actions during the war in 1948 (even if we accept they were in the wrong, which I do not) justify boarding a bus and slaughtering civilians 6 years later.

Your last statement I guess is true but not helpful. Plenty of violence to go around.

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michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43662658[source]
All military actions made by oppressed peoples is legitimate resistance and your framing of Palestinians as instigators is troubling.
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gryzzly ◴[] No.43664032[source]
not wearing uniform, attacking civilians, capturing hostages and holding your own civilian population hostage by violently taking over the commercial distribution of free humanitarian aid can not be called legitimate in any way
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michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43664095[source]
You're right, Hamas should focus on uniform production(they wear uniform bandanas BTW, watch their videos) while Gaza has a higher proportion of destroyed buildings than Germany in ww2. You certainly got your priorities straight.
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int_19h ◴[] No.43668451[source]
Not massacring civilians by the hundreds would be a good start.
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michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43673524[source]
And what about by the tens of thousands?
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YZF ◴[] No.43675362[source]
The IDF is not "massacring civilians by the tens of thousands". You could argue the IDF is very loose with its targeting and is willing to go after military targets even if many civilians get hurt. The Hamas was significantly looser with their targeting with 10's of thousands of rockets fired randomly into population centers.

The situation is completely different. One action is a defensive response and the other was an offensive initiative. There is no reality in which the Hamas attack can be framed as defensive or justifiable by any western values. The IDF response however is very much in line with what western nations have actually done, e.g. the US response to 9/11, the response to ISIS, WW-II or any other war you can think of.

The US went to the other side of the world to get the people it thought wanted to harm it. There wasn't even any real threat to its territory or people. It was simply about deterrence and getting even and it was significantly more heavy handed. Similarly other western powers that went after ISIS. Israel to contrast is facing an existential threat and parts of the country are/were unlivable because of the threat of attacks. It has no option other than the complete removal of Hamas from Gaza (and Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon which has largely been accomplished).

replies(2): >>43675748 #>>43676926 #
michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43676926[source]
>The situation is completely different. One action is a defensive

There's nothing defensive about embarking on a self-described colonial endeavour.

replies(1): >>43677419 #
YZF ◴[] No.43677419[source]
There's no colonial endeavor. Jewish people returning to their historical homeland is not a colonial endeavour. Arab expansion in the middle east is a colonial endeavor. European expansion to the Americas and other places is a colonial endeavor.

I don't know where you live, your nationality or heritage, but you're likely more of a colonizer than any Israeli. Since most are. I'll bet you think you have the right to defend yourself, your family, your nation.

EDIT: Also I should thank you for saying that. A lot of people try to pretend that if only Israel behaved differently then everyone would live happily ever after. Most do not even understand what "Palestine" is and what "Israel". Where's the West Bank and where's Gaza. But the Palestinians and the Arabs believe the Israelis are colonizers (of the entire region) and invaders and therefore they have the right to kill them, civilians or otherwise, until they repel them out of the region and Israelis do not have the right of self defense. This is of course absurd and would discourage many people from supporting their cause so they try their best to not say this outwardly. The truth is that if the Palestinians and the Arab countries recognized the Jewish people's legitimate rights in the region and were looking for peace we'd have peace a long time ago.

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michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43677691[source]
>There's no colonial endeavor. Jewish people returning to their historical homeland is not a colonial endeavour.

That's crazy because Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, definitely defined it as a colonial endeavour.

You should read his book: "The Jewish State: An Attempt at a Modern Solution to the Jewish Question", it's quite enlightening on exactly where this movement began and its historical motivations, which is absolutely the same MO as modern Israel.

Also the notion that people who are over 1000 years removed from a piece of land coming to violently remove current residents from their homes and massacre and imprison them for over 70 years isn't colonialism is absolutely ludicrous. Please seriously think about this sentence again. Think about it hard, like, harder than you've ever thought before.

>Arab expansion in the middle east is a colonial endeavor.

It's clear after you typed these first two sentences that you're probably a genocidal maniac, like approximately 57 percent of the Israeli population who believe that the current amount of force used is still not enough.

>Arab countries recognized the Jewish people's legitimate rights in the region and were looking for peace we'd have peace a long time ago.

There is absolutely zero legitimacy to the Zionist regime.

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gryzzly ◴[] No.43679566[source]
You just show how antisemitic you are for all to see.
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michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43685975[source]
Enlighten me as to what specific statements are anti-semitic? Do you equate Zionism with Judaism? Do you believe that the Zionist state represents the views of all Jews worldwide?
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gryzzly ◴[] No.43708662[source]
delimtization, demonization and double standards are all very present in all your messages.
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michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43718902[source]
>delimtization

Not a word.

>demonization

Yeah, they behave like demons

>double standards

Why is suggesting that the people who lived on the land for thousands of years have a right to not be genocided and ethnically cleansed a double standard? Why do the invaders have a right to the land they stole?

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gryzzly ◴[] No.43728257[source]
for other people who take interest - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ds_of_antisemitism

You, I have no more interest in talking to.

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1. michaelsshaw ◴[] No.43729719[source]
You justify colonialism and mass murder for theological reasons. That's disgusting behavior.

And delimitization is still not a word.