←back to thread

417 points fuidani | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.32s | source
Show context
seanhunter ◴[] No.43714467[source]
Firstly that is completely badass science. The idea that you can use observations to detect the chemical composition of an exoplanet millions of kilometres away is an absolute triumph of the work of thousands of people over hundreds of years. Really amazing and deeply humbling to me.

Secondly, my prior was always that life existed outside of earth. It just seems so unlikely that we are somehow that special. If life developed here I always felt it overwhelmingly likely that it developed elsewhere too given how incredibly unfathomably vast the universe is.

replies(14): >>43714565 #>>43714577 #>>43714584 #>>43714631 #>>43714656 #>>43714773 #>>43714830 #>>43714875 #>>43714914 #>>43714940 #>>43714971 #>>43715045 #>>43717003 #>>43717397 #
ta8645 ◴[] No.43714565[source]
If life is very common in the universe, then that is probably bad news for us. It means that civilizations should exist that are millions of years more technologically advanced than us; and should be leaving telltale signatures across the sky that we'd likely have detected by now. And the absence of those signs would be relatively strong evidence that life, while common, isn't long-lived. Suggesting that our demise too, will come before too long.

If, on the other hand, life is relatively rare, or we're the sole example, our future can't be statistically estimated that way.

replies(34): >>43714604 #>>43714608 #>>43714615 #>>43714618 #>>43714624 #>>43714625 #>>43714636 #>>43714650 #>>43714691 #>>43714706 #>>43714729 #>>43714760 #>>43714766 #>>43714781 #>>43714825 #>>43714839 #>>43714844 #>>43714975 #>>43714991 #>>43715000 #>>43715063 #>>43715072 #>>43715084 #>>43715118 #>>43715227 #>>43715286 #>>43715299 #>>43715350 #>>43716046 #>>43716710 #>>43716759 #>>43717852 #>>43726399 #>>43727782 #
goognighz ◴[] No.43714844[source]
Dark forest hypothesis explains this in a “dark” way. They exist but are smart enough to hide from hostile hunter/predator life forms. Meanwhile our dumbasses are blasting radio signals into space like a little kid trying to talk to every stranger they see.
replies(2): >>43714985 #>>43715170 #
Intralexical ◴[] No.43714985[source]
It's also largely bunk. More a story than a hypothesis, really. Game theory shows cooperation beats aggression on a long enough timescale. Politics shows alliances and MAD deters first strike. Even actual "dark forests" are full of animals that have bright colors and make loud noises.
replies(2): >>43715029 #>>43715165 #
joseppu ◴[] No.43715029[source]
I really wish natives of places we discovered knew about this. they could've evaded all the bad parts and just explained how it is just a story.
replies(1): >>43720583 #
Intralexical ◴[] No.43720583[source]
The Indigenous peoples of the Americas knew well enough about the value of cooperation and alliance. That's why they had stuff like the Iroquois Confederacy, and switched between working with the British, the French, and the colonies depending on which was best for each individual group of natives at any one time. To present them as pure victims powerless before the might of white settlers undermines the political and cultural agency that Native peoples in fact had, and exercised.

The predominant form of relationship between European and Native American peoples for hundreds of years was trade, not war. The tragedies and the atrocities that resulted were a slow burn of conflicting interests and epidemiological naïveté, both between Europeans and Natives and also within each group. That's quite different from the hiding and decapitation strikes usually presented as "dark forest hypothesis", because there's no reason that those specific interests and ignorance would carry over to interstellar society (and every reason that they would need to be overcome in order to become interstellar in the first place).

But why do people always use the fate of resource-constrained preindustrial societies (both Europe and America) to try to predict relationships between hyper-advanced Kardashev-level civilizations anyway? It really seems to me like some kind of projected shame. You can see this too with Liu Cixin. He came from a country that was recently dominated, and has more recently been preparing to dominate its neighbors, so his story pretends nothing better is possible. I suppose that's comforting for some, and questioning it brings out people who show what it's really about.

Google Trends shows the top 10 countries for "Dark forest hypothesis" include the US, Taiwan, China, Peurto Rico, HK, Canada, and Aus [1]— Places with a prominent recent or ongoing imperial history, whether as victims or victimizers. I actually find the "dark forest" narratives quite disturbing, not as a prediction of our future, but as a window into the psyche of people who seem to want it to be one.

You might as well say the Romans had a slave-based economy, so therefore spacefaring empires must also be looking for human slaves! That's got exactly the same amount of validity as the Native comparison. But economic and military incentives obviously change as technology and culture develops. If anything, the fact we used to kill a lot of natives, and we don't so much anymore, is a strong sign that advanced societies can trend towards being less genocidal.

1: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=%2Fg%2F11jyk5h9nj...

replies(1): >>43725051 #
1. joseppu ◴[] No.43725051[source]
Valid arguments tbh. In the struggles between European and Native American, there is the aspect of being able to escape and continue to pose as a threat and such. There is no total extinction. But in dark forest theory there is the total extinction of home planet aspect, without giving in your own location (no vengeance or kill switch can be carried towards you). And also attack factor being so much more advanced that there is little to no defense against it.

In our world, we never had this level of capability amassed in one hand. We were never tested in this scale. But lets think there was a button in cold war that completely erased soviets with no harm to planet, no harm to the western world and without anyone noticing the origin of this action. How many in U.S. would press that button? I think we would've pressed many times. And later, to know that another planet might be having a button exactly like this that they can press and erase us? we would press first so they never get the chance to do it. Paranoia and self preservation prevails, sadly.

I believe our cooperation in society also relies on our capability of projecting power be it physical or economical. The weaker individuals power becomes, the louder powerful peoples actions become. Saying this as Non-U.S citizen, right now the richest guy can easily interfere in state dealings, act like the president in a way, maybe this is evolution of lobbying tradition there but could you imagine such a thing happening in ancient Greece or even in Rome? What prevented this was citizens' ability to exert power. Right now there is little of that, power disparity is huge and so there isn't as much of a cooperation. Sorry if this part deviated from topic or smth. It is just I believe it 100% depends on real, physical factors rather than how advanced we get mentally.