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America underestimates the difficulty of bringing manufacturing back

(www.molsonhart.com)
842 points putzdown | 25 comments | 15 Apr 25 13:50 UTC | HN request time: 0.213s | source | bottom
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NoTeslaThrow ◴[16 Apr 25 15:02 UTC] No.43706451[source]▶
We never stopped manufacturing, we just stopped employing people.

> We don’t have the infrastructure to manufacture

That's trivially false given we're the second-largest manufacturer in the world. We just don't want to employ people, hence why we can't make an iphone or refine raw materials.

The actual issue is that our business culture is antithetical to a healthy society. The idea of employing Americans is anti-business—there's no willingness to invest, or to train, or to support an employee seen as waste. Until business can find some sort of reason to care about the state of the country, this will continue.

Of course, the government could weigh in, could incentivize, could subsidize, could propagandize, etc, to encourage us to actually build domestic industries. But that would be a titantic course reversal that would take decades of cultural change.

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1. epolanski ◴[16 Apr 25 15:35 UTC] No.43706762[source]▶
> We just don't want to employ people

I don't think it's a matter of willingness, but simple global geo economics.

There's places where producing A, whatever A is, is economically more efficient for countless reasons (energy prices, logistics, talent, bureaucracy, cost of labor, etc).

That's not gonna change with whatever investment you want or tariff you put.

But the thing I find more absurd, of all, is that I'd expect HN users to be aware that USA has thrived in the sector economy while offloading things that made more sense to be done elsewhere.

I'd expect HN users to understand that the very positive trade balances like Japan's, Italy's or Germany's run are meaningless and don't make your country richer.

Yet I'm surrounded by users ideologically rushing into some delusional autarchic dystopia of fixing american manufacturing for the sake of it.

replies(2): >>43707022 #>>43707355 #
2. almosthere ◴[16 Apr 25 16:00 UTC] No.43707022[source]▶
Cost of labor is the issue: china is enslaving people to work.
replies(5): >>43707081 #>>43707139 #>>43707279 #>>43707480 #>>43736160 #
3. SlightlyLeftPad ◴[16 Apr 25 16:04 UTC] No.43707081[source]▶
Source?
replies(2): >>43707224 #>>43707225 #
4. DiggyJohnson ◴[16 Apr 25 16:11 UTC] No.43707139[source]▶
Doesn't that feel like a massive overstatement? They have worse working conditions for sure. "Enslavement" is absurd if we are speaking about the macro level.
replies(2): >>43707799 #>>43717188 #
5. Kirby64 ◴[16 Apr 25 16:19 UTC] No.43707224{3}[source]▶
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps

Literally forced labor camps. Of course, the PRC denies these allegations, but it certainly seems like there's some forced labor due to the numerous reports across many years of a variety of forced labor operations from these camps.

replies(2): >>43707307 #>>43711707 #
6. Clubber ◴[16 Apr 25 16:19 UTC] No.43707225{3}[source]▶
Simple google search, first result:

https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studie...

replies(1): >>43739784 #
7. runako ◴[16 Apr 25 16:23 UTC] No.43707279[source]▶
The US specifically outlawed slavery except among prisoners. The US also operates prison labor at very low rates.

I'm not sure this is a meaningful point of differentiation.

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8. NoTeslaThrow ◴[16 Apr 25 16:29 UTC] No.43707355[source]▶
> I don't think it's a matter of willingness, but simple global geo economics.

I don't see a difference. If we want local industry, we must address the global geo economics.

replies(2): >>43707973 #>>43710586 #
9. AnthonyMouse ◴[16 Apr 25 16:39 UTC] No.43707480[source]▶
The other side of this coin is cost of living. If housing costs more in the US, so does everything else. If everything costs more, people have to be paid more in order to make a living, and that makes the US less competitive in the global labor market.
10. jofla_net ◴[16 Apr 25 17:08 UTC] No.43707799{3}[source]▶
Those nets tho...
replies(1): >>43711559 #
11. ◴[16 Apr 25 17:22 UTC] No.43707973[source]▶
12. epolanski ◴[16 Apr 25 21:28 UTC] No.43710586[source]▶
Nobody really wants a "local" industry as much as consumers want cheap prices and companies want global reach.

US manufacturing accomplishes higher prices and US only reach.

replies(1): >>43711906 #
13. astrange ◴[16 Apr 25 23:47 UTC] No.43711559{4}[source]▶
There's nothing unusual about suicide nets in a place with a lot of people. They're on the Golden Gate Bridge but that doesn't mean SF is a sweatshop.

(The suicide rate at Foxconn is lower than average for China.)

replies(1): >>43773007 #
14. makeitshine ◴[17 Apr 25 00:11 UTC] No.43711707{4}[source]▶
The US has forced prison labor. We can talk about how bad the Chinese government is, but their economy is not built on forced labor anymore than the US is built on prison labor.
replies(1): >>43712099 #
15. waynesonfire ◴[17 Apr 25 00:46 UTC] No.43711906{3}[source]▶
That's a narrow perspective. The "benefits" that are granted to a country have a cost and these costs need to be reconciled with on the international stage. This is achieved through tariffs otherwise the playing field isn't fair.
16. Kirby64 ◴[17 Apr 25 01:16 UTC] No.43712099{5}[source]▶
I also think any form of forced work in the US prison system is pretty awful, but don’t try to equivocate Chinese “reeducation” camps with regular prison. Not anywhere close to the same thing.
replies(1): >>43714778 #
17. anon6362 ◴[17 Apr 25 03:57 UTC] No.43712980{3}[source]▶
US corporations benefit today from slave labor by people housed in for-profit prisons where there are incentives to over-prosecute brown and poor people. These include, but aren't limited to:

- Aramark

- Avis

- IBM

- JCPenney

- Kmart

- McDonald's

- Nintendo

- Sprint

- Starbucks

- Verizon

- Walmart

- Wendy's

- Whole Foods/Amazon

18. ta20240528 ◴[17 Apr 25 09:57 UTC] No.43714778{6}[source]▶
Have you asked any of the inmates at the Angola "working farm" in Louisiana?

Apparently 63% are serving life terms, 27% more than 20 years.

Doesn't seem worse than China's attempt to iron out a seditious, violent sub-culture that was actually detonating bombs amongst civilians? Most seem to have closed, so the maximum term < 10 years.

Neither are good ideas IMHO - but one way worse than the other? Come now.

replies(1): >>43720166 #
19. martin_a ◴[17 Apr 25 14:15 UTC] No.43717188{3}[source]▶
Overstatement? China is going fully facist on the Uyghurs for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_Chin...
20. Kirby64 ◴[17 Apr 25 17:53 UTC] No.43720166{7}[source]▶
> Neither are good ideas IMHO - but one way worse than the other? Come now.

Inmates in any prison in the US ostensibly have gone through due process and were convicted of their crimes. You can argue about whether the US justice system is truly fair, but it's (at least in historic years) certainly more fair than rounding up large portions of a specific ethnic minority for 'reeducation'.

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21. ta20240528 ◴[18 Apr 25 10:28 UTC] No.43726681{8}[source]▶
I would argue that in the 21st century being convicted of a crime does not make your labour essentially free to the state for the rest of your life.
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22. SlightlyLeftPad ◴[18 Apr 25 16:02 UTC] No.43729320{9}[source]▶
Exactly, a notion of free prison labor incentivizes discrimination and as we see it that is often how it plays out in reality.
23. pjmlp ◴[19 Apr 25 13:10 UTC] No.43736160[source]▶
Seems pretty much like gig economy works in US.
24. SlightlyLeftPad ◴[19 Apr 25 21:55 UTC] No.43739784{4}[source]▶
This doesn’t entirely prove that China is much worse off than the US here, since we appear to be comparing. It’s pretty clear that US has a lot of room for improvement at 3.3/thousand people compared to China’s 4.
25. jofla_net ◴[23 Apr 25 15:02 UTC] No.43773007{5}[source]▶
Crossing the bridge is hard work.