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225 points DonHopkins | 18 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
1. decimalenough ◴[] No.43700065[source]
China famously now has "dark factories" where everything is automated, so lighting is not needed.

Guess this means we're about to have "dark dairies" where cows can be kept chained up in perpetual darkness, with robots doing the absolute minimum required to keep them alive, pregnant and producing milk.

I know this is not a particularly pleasant thought, but I'd like to hear counterarguments about why this wouldn't happen, since to me it seems market pressures will otherwise drive dairies in this direction.

(For what it's worth, I'm not a vegan, but a visit to a regular human-run dairy sufficiently confident in its practices to conduct tours for the public was almost enough to put me off dairy products for good.)

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2. HeyLaughingBoy ◴[] No.43700299[source]
"Lights out manufacturing" has been a thing around the world for literally decades. This is not new. The main "problem" is feeding the machines enough raw material and removing finished parts so they can keep running without human intervention. Not surprisingly, there are now robots for that.

https://www.machinemetrics.com/blog/lights-out-manufacturing

As far as why your scenario wouldn't happen: why would it? You can dream up anything you like, doesn't mean it makes sense.

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3. decimalenough ◴[] No.43700582[source]
All things being equal, why would you pay for lighting if you don't need it?
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4. HeyLaughingBoy ◴[] No.43700644{3}[source]
The assumption that all things are equal is the issue I have with your argument.
5. foolfoolz ◴[] No.43700879{3}[source]
it’s mentioned many times in the linked article happy cows produce more milk
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6. blargey ◴[] No.43701028[source]
These robots don't look conducive to automating the labor specific to factory farming. Overlap with manure cleanup at best, but do factory farms have spacious enough layouts to be compatible with those?

More generally, the egg market in the US has gone from 4% cage-free in 2010 to 39.7% cage-free in 2024. Cows don't have a "non-factory" label but I don't see why one wouldn't be as successful. You also supposedly get more milk per cow the nice way.

The far future will have ever more cows per capita given human fertility trends, so I don't see the preference for quality over quantity regressing, or any sudden need to produce more milk than ever.

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7. Brybry ◴[] No.43701412[source]
Why would we stop at removing the human labor and doing the minimum required to keep cows alive?

We could not have cows at all: bioreactors producing milk from cell cultures.

https://jasbsci.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40104-02...

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8. hibikir ◴[] No.43701557[source]
For something like milk, which is produced by mammals to feed young ones, there's all kinds of biological connections between a relaxed, healthy, content animal and milk production. We are humans, it's not much different for us. So as far as milk production goes, the wellbeing of the cow lines up relatively well with productivity. A stressed, unhealthy animal isn't going produce all that well. Often the limitation isn't the disinterest in the wellbeing of the animal, but the capital and labor required to improve conditions.

Quality tech can actually improve animal welfare, as shifting costs from labor into capital makes quality of care improve.

Now, this doesn't always line up well in all kinds of animal husbandry, but you went and looked at one case where it does. The dark dairy you imagine would most likely lose money.

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9. DonHopkins ◴[] No.43701804{4}[source]
But happy cows can cause unhappy roosters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up880afV_qs

10. nkrisc ◴[] No.43704031{3}[source]
Why would cows not need lighting?
11. sayamqazi ◴[] No.43705083[source]
What are the risks of cell cultures develping cancer or even worse ejecting prions into the milk.
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12. aaronbaugher ◴[] No.43705257[source]
Farm kid here. While it's true that farmers have an incentive to keep their animals in good condition, that's not the only incentive toward profit, and the bottom line often results in a pretty stressed, unhealthy animal that's in good enough condition to keep producing. If you can save $X by providing a minimum feed ration and leaving the cows in the care of the cheapest, least-caring employees you can find, and that reduces your milk check by less than $X, that's what's going to happen in a lot of cases, especially the larger operations.

(Not unlike human employers who have an incentive to treat their employees well but often don't.)

Farm organizations like to say farmers have every reason to keep their livestock in the best condition, implying that they're frolicking on pasture in peak health, but that's not really true. A lot of times it means miserable condition on concrete or a freezing feedlot. Livestock animals, like humans, are resilient and can keep producing through some pretty terrible treatment. The only ways to combat that seem to be A) customers who actively seek out farms that practice good animal welfare practices, or B) reasonable animal welfare laws.

13. aaronbaugher ◴[] No.43705279{4}[source]
But do they produce enough more milk to offset the electric bill? That will make the decision, if a corporation is considering a "dark dairy."
14. aaronbaugher ◴[] No.43705385[source]
Where I live, there are still some small, family-run dairies, and they all have customers who come to them looking for local, pasture-raised, raw milk. People will even break the law to get it, so there's definitely a market, but current regulations make it difficult to serve it.

Small, direct-to-customer farms are the ones most likely to lean into customer-pleasing animal welfare practices. But to profitably sell direct to customers within the law in most US jurisdictions, a dairy pretty much has to put in its own pasteurization setup, a major investment. That's kept dairy from developing the equivalent of cage-free eggs.

15. numpad0 ◴[] No.43706221[source]
You don't ACTUALLY force "dark factory" to be completely pitch dark. That phrase just means they would not be required to follow legal light level requirements(there are such things) and technically considered a "dark" place.

No one buys pigs and cows grown chained inside abandoned mineshafts. It doesn't save any costs and just doesn't make sense.

16. 9rx ◴[] No.43708663[source]
> the egg market in the US has gone from 4% cage-free in 2010 to 39.7% cage-free in 2024.

What does that really mean, though? A farmer down the road produces "free-range" chickens. While it is true that the operation is technically setup for it, which is what is required to meet certification, never in my life have I seen the barn doors open.

17. ahartman00 ◴[] No.43710398[source]
"A somatic cell count (SCC) is a cell count of somatic cells in a fluid specimen, usually milk. In dairying, the SCC is an indicator of the quality of milk—specifically, its low likeliness to contain harmful bacteria, and thus its high food safety."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_cell_count

18. LargoLasskhyfv ◴[] No.43711102{3}[source]
Ejecting/flushing them out periodically, and starting over, as it is done for many other agroindustrially used cell cultures already?

Cheese comes to mind, Qorn, aromes in cell cultures on wet sawdust sold as 'nature identical', countless more I don't remember ATM.