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842 points putzdown | 21 comments | | HN request time: 0.427s | source | bottom
1. kotaKat ◴[] No.43692997[source]
Missing reason #15: commercial lenders with a brain realize that these tariffs and this self-imposed domestic crisis will dissipate in the next ~6 years. Nobody's going to lend in this market to try to spin up a new greenfield project in the US that will take years to get operational when they can sit and ride it out - ESPECIALLY at these interest rates.
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2. potato3732842 ◴[] No.43693282[source]
I'm not so sure.

The tariffs most certainly will dissipate but we can't discount the chance that they may be replaced with actual written in law voted on by congress and signed by the president taxes that have similar but much more durable effects.

Manufacturing and heavy industry really hates off-shoring. They only do it because the sum total of other policy makes it the only viable option. I can see them taking a decent haircut in pursuit of some longer term goal.

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3. Workaccount2 ◴[] No.43693588[source]
I have a suspicion that the coming tax cuts will be extreme, and the gaps in critical funding will be covered with tariff income. This will essentially make tariffs a cornerstone for government finances.

Political suicide to roll back tax breaks if they are primarily for the <$150k earners, like trump wants.

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4. FireBeyond ◴[] No.43695950{3}[source]
> Political suicide to roll back tax breaks if they are primarily for the <$150k earners, like trump wants.

What tax breaks has he aimed at these people beyond some of the overtime and tipping (which is expected to only equate to about $2K)?

Instead:

>The largest tax cuts would accrue to the highest-income families, the Treasury said.

> Household in the top 5% — who earn more than $450,000 a year, roughly — are the “biggest winners,” according to a July 2024 analysis by the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center. They’d get over 45% of the benefits of extending the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, it said.

> A Penn Wharton Budget Model analysis on the impacts of the broad Republican tax plan had a similar finding.

> The bottom 80% of income earners would get 29% of the total value of proposed tax cuts in 2026, according to the Wharton analysis, issued Thursday. The top 10% would get 56% of the value, it said.

replies(1): >>43696537 #
5. dehrmann ◴[] No.43696238[source]
The government could make loans directly and guarantee purchase prices, but it's also stopped making payments congress committed it to, so you'd be crazy to trust any promises from the administration.
6. Workaccount2 ◴[] No.43696537{4}[source]
I don't know what tax plan that is an analysis of, but Trump has stated he wants to eliminate income tax for those under $150k.

I don't know what news source you trust, but if you google it, he stated it back in March.

replies(2): >>43696749 #>>43707362 #
7. FireBeyond ◴[] No.43696749{5}[source]
I admit I had not heard this one. But the first thing I saw on it said:

> According to Lutnick’s interview with CBS News, Trump’s tax policy goal is to remove federal income taxes for individuals earning under $150,000 annually.

(omitted some of the other bullet points around tariff funding and tip exemption)

> While Lutnick later walked back the certainty of these plans, he clarified that the proposal is aspirational and depends on the ability to balance the federal budget.

I have serious doubts about the likelihood of a Trump proposal that even his Commerce Secretary says are "aspirational". Then again, the other part of Trump is that sometimes he does whatever he wants, regardless of what his Secretaries have said or known (witness the tariffs being paused mid hearing, leading to a Republican politician frantically swiping at his iPad in the middle of his testimony about the value of keeping the tariffs despite widespread market uncertainty).

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8. Workaccount2 ◴[] No.43697464{6}[source]
Trump is a populist president. He is the right wing Bernie Sanders. Eliminating income tax for those making under $150k is right wing version of a "Billionaire Stipend" for everyone under $150k. Of course the republican guard is going to downplay the insanity he spews, but here we are with blanket tariffs and China virtually cut off.

Trump and Sanders aren't opposites, they're next door neighbors with a common goal and mostly superficial disagreements like whether tax cuts or stimulus checks are better hand out approaches. They both want to trash trade deals and both want tariffs. If you are perplexed as many where why so many Bernie bros voted Trump over Hillary in 2016, this is the answer.

They are both blue-collar presidents, and both want to inflict damage onto the elite. The problem is that the elite are the system, their health is a function of the economies health, so it's a "buckle-in" moment when someone comes in who wants to rough up the elite.

replies(1): >>43707156 #
9. Cthulhu_ ◴[] No.43702316[source]
Not only will it take years to get operational, there is no way it would ever reach the scale and reach of Chinese manufacturing, not in six years, not in sixty. Even if they throw trillions of investor money at it.

China and others are clearly demonstrating the power of capitalism with state support. The US is too busy infighting and keeping capitalism and politics separate (small government, let the market decide etc). You wouldn't find enough employees that want to work in manufacturing; you'd need millions to even try and get close to what China is doing.

Now I'm not actually OK with what China is doing, the paragraphs about worker conditions were quite telling. But I will recognize that it gives them the upper hand in manufacturing that the US hasn't had since the 50's.

(meta: I'm gonna have to specify "the 1950's soon" don't I?)

replies(2): >>43704275 #>>43704639 #
10. slfnflctd ◴[] No.43704275[source]
The apostrophe when specifying decades is incorrect, it's a common grammatical error.

Should be "50s" and "1950s". Sorry, I usually don't do this but I otherwise liked your comment and thought you might want to know.

replies(1): >>43715751 #
11. myflash13 ◴[] No.43704639[source]
> demonstrating the power of capitalism with state support

This is actually an excellent reason for tariffs. If we can't beat them at their game because it goes against our principles, then just don't buy their stuff.

replies(2): >>43705378 #>>43706789 #
12. ◴[] No.43704755[source]
13. JKCalhoun ◴[] No.43705378{3}[source]
It's almost like the U.S. is going to lose either way.
14. phendrenad2 ◴[] No.43705404[source]
This is a big one. Once upon a time, the Democrats and Republicans listened to the same think tanks, so there was continuity in planning. Now, they seem to be opposed to plans simply because the "other side" came up with them. The whiplash we've been experiencing has torn the economy apart and scared businesses away.
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15. floatrock ◴[] No.43706789{3}[source]
So rather than competing when a more efficient innovation seems to have come about, just put our hands over our eyes and pretend it doesn't exist to our markets?
16. amanaplanacanal ◴[] No.43707156{7}[source]
If Trump and Musk aren't "the elite", I'm not sure who is. Unless what you really mean is "the educated".
17. Kirby64 ◴[] No.43707362{5}[source]
It's already stated in the source quote. Extending the TCJA.

What he says is almost irrelevant to what he actually does most of the time. He 'says' he wants to lower taxes on the lower income folks, but the tax bill he actually passed was essentially a handout to wealthy and businesses. He 'says' he wants to bring back manufacturing, but the reality is his tariff actions do nothing of the sort.

18. nitwit005 ◴[] No.43708616[source]
If it looked like congress was eager to vote these tariffs into law, things would be different, as that sentiment might outlast the current administration, but that doesn't appear to be the case.
19. e40 ◴[] No.43715518[source]
You’re almost right. This is not a both sides issue. One side has made a concerted effort to get us to this point, and it started in the 80s or before.
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20. greenie_beans ◴[] No.43715751{3}[source]
hacker news is so much fun.
21. phendrenad2 ◴[] No.43822384{3}[source]
Obviously false but whatever