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975 points namukang | 25 comments | | HN request time: 1.026s | source | bottom
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abdj8 ◴[] No.43678249[source]
Layoffs are a difficult thing for employees and their managers. I have seen people (one was a VP of Engineering) escorted out of the building, sent in a cab to home along with a security guard (this was in India), not allowed access to computer or talk with other employees. But, recently have had a very different experience. The current company I work for announced 30% layoffs. The list was made public within one hour of announcement. The CEO detailed the process of selecting people. The severance was very generous (3-6 months pay) along with health and other benefits. The impacted employees were allowed to keep the laptop and any other assets they took from the company. They even paid the same severance to contractors.

After the announcement, the laid off employees were given a few days in the company to allow them to say good byes. I love the CEOs comment on this ' I trusted them yesterday, I trust them today'. This was by far the kindest way of laying off employees imo. People were treated with dignity and respect.

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1. Ferret7446 ◴[] No.43678739[source]
What happens if your company supports billions of dollars in economic output, and a few employees decides to go rogue and sabotage some systems that then causes an international loss of billions of dollars, and possibly property damages and loss of life? If you were the CEO, would you take criminal/financial responsibility for that?
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2. fzeroracer ◴[] No.43678776[source]
Does this question also equally apply to the opposite side? If an employee got so angry with how you laid them off and treated them afterwards that they decide to do what they can to damage your company?

Cutting access and having security walk them out is more or less security theater. If an employee really wanted to cause damage the odds are they either already have or will still find a way. In this scenario having generous severance and treating them with respect is likely to better defuse the situation than kicking them out the door.

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3. noisy_boy ◴[] No.43678799[source]
There is a range between kicking them out instantly and allowing them to do whatever they please. Authorizations to important systems should be immediately revoked but you can allow them some time to gather their things, access to internal chat to say their goodbyes etc. Or is that an excuse for poorly designed internal controls?
4. Ferret7446 ◴[] No.43678821[source]
This hypothetical is about what the CEO/company decides to do, not what the employee decides to do. A lot of liability "theater" is not there to prevent issues, it's to cover your ass.

So no, this question doesn't apply equally to the opposite side. An employee does not take responsibility for what the company does. A lot of people wonder why CEOs are paid so much; part of that is simply to take responsibility.

Ironically, a lot of people complain about useless CEOs, but if you asked them to take that responsibility for the pay, they wouldn't take it (note that that responsibility includes things like sweet talking shareholders and giving public statements on short notice on things that could nuke millions of dollars in value and create very real legal liability).

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5. hnfong ◴[] No.43678836[source]
It's not like there aren't disgruntled employees before layoffs. If a single employee could cause billions of dollars in losses, then the company already has a big problem regardless of layoffs.

It's very interesting how so many people in upper management seem to think that they can trust employees not to sabotage and cause billions of dollars in losses by paying them like 100k a year.

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6. FpUser ◴[] No.43678882[source]
>"If a single employee could cause billions of dollars in losses..."

This situation is endemic in smaller companies with the tight budgets.

7. bitpush ◴[] No.43678887[source]
There's a difference. An employee going rogue is different from a non employee/ex-employee doing malicious things.

Only one of them would be seen as negligent.

8. bow_ ◴[] No.43678892[source]
Right. Because only laid-off employees can cause such a damage of course (/s).

This is a twisted way to look at the risk.

Disgruntled employees have more reason to wreak havoc. All the more reason they should be treated as humanely as possible in a difficult period that in most cases is inflicted by the company itself.

9. varenc ◴[] No.43678906[source]
The big difference is liability exposure.

If a current employee causes damage, that's one thing. But if a recently laid-off employee who retained full system access causes billions in losses, the CEO and board would face severe consequences legally and reputationally, since it would be perceived as an obvious security lapse.

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10. jmpz ◴[] No.43679016[source]
This is only a problem if you treat employees in a way that makes them want to go rogue and sabotage some systems.. maybe don't fire them without warning or cause, or clear reasoning? I suppose if someone is actually able to tangibly impact some critical system, limit their access to that, but beyond that, it's just an excuse to make it sound OK to abruptly dump someone from a social and professional context. Maybe it's legal, but is it necessary? No. Is it traumatizing? Yes.
11. chasontherobot ◴[] No.43679039{3}[source]
Ah yes, because CEOs often face consequences for their poor decisions. They definitely don't get golden parachutes and move on to a new company when they run a company into the ground.
12. ajb ◴[] No.43679334[source]
There are companies that support billions of economic output in countries which require a notice period. If they thought it was a risk that they would be taken down be a rogue employee, they have the option of putting them on 'gardening leave' during the notice period. This is extremely rare; they know the risk is insignificant so they are more keen to get any remaining value from the relationship (work, handover).

In our industry and many others, being a professional and maintaining good relations with your ex -colleagues, who form your professional network, is much more valuable than any emotional satisfaction from screwing them over, even without the risk of going to prison.

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13. ahtihn ◴[] No.43679375[source]
> they have the option of putting them on 'gardening leave' during the notice period. This is extremely rare

That must depend on the country. In Switzerland it's standard that employees don't work during the notice period when they're laid off.

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14. pclmulqdq ◴[] No.43679459[source]
The "garden leave" approach is the standard in the US. 3-6 months of severance pay, but you lose access to company systems immediately.
15. rwmj ◴[] No.43679535{3}[source]
An employee who is serving their notice period is still an employee. Unless you mean truly ex-employees who still have access, in which case the company has a big problem if it cannot revoke credentials.
16. ajb ◴[] No.43679591{3}[source]
Must do. I wonder if that's because of the wide access to weapons? Although I thought I'd heard that there still wasn't much gun violence in Switzerland.
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17. mcherm ◴[] No.43679662{3}[source]
This is a strange sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. Effectively, your argument says that if there is any step, whether wise or foolish, kind or cruel, that some take, all must take it or risk being found negligent.

That's no way to run an (overly litigious) society.

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18. ajb ◴[] No.43681086{4}[source]
Puzzled by why anyone would downvote a pure question. Wide distribution of guns is an obvious commonality between the US and Switzerland; if that's offensive observation please let me know why!
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19. tspng ◴[] No.43681676{4}[source]
It's definitely not related to the population's gun ownership ratio. I would say gun violence is probably comparable with our European neighbours. It's just way lower compared to the US.

Also, from my experience, there is not a clear trend whether companies in Switzerland want employees to keep working or if they just let them go during the notice period. I've seen many examples of both.

20. thor-rodrigues ◴[] No.43681985{4}[source]
I have the impression that (although I did not check for data beforehand to confirm my assumptions) that gun violence is very low in developed countries, with the USA being the outlier.

I believe the overall positive employer-employee relationship in Europe is much more of a product of legislature and cultural norms, than the threat of violence.

21. hnfong ◴[] No.43682045{4}[source]
I don't even agree with the self-proclaimed legal experts in the replies.

Employers generally assume liability for torts (civil liability arising from wrong-doings) vicariously. For example if an employee somehow puts rat poison into a customer's burger, the employer is automatically liable for that, because they are responsible for the employee's actions. (See eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarious_liability )

But if on the other hand a recently laid-off ex-employee sneaks back to the restaurant and then adds rat poison to the burgers, the liability of the employer isn't automatic (you can claim they should have done better with their security etc., but it is probably a defense to say they did all reasonable steps to secure the facilities).

So yeah, I call bullshit. More likely is that the C-suite just cargo-culted some "layoff best practices" and it just became a thing you did without questioning.

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22. renewedrebecca ◴[] No.43684246{5}[source]
Probably because only the US has the kind of gun violence that you're wondering about. I don't think in Europe, the idea that someone is going to come after you with a gun because you pissed them off generally hits the radar.

Someone may find the question offensive because of that.

23. int_19h ◴[] No.43688318{4}[source]
Even in US, it's not a strict rule. I gave my notice more than a month in advance and retained access to all employee spaces (both physical and digital) until my last day. Coincidentally, I own enough guns that describing it as an "arsenal" would not even be an embellishment it usually is.

At the end of the day it's more about culture (i.e. people's expectations of what is normal) than any objective factors.

24. varenc ◴[] No.43688327{5}[source]
I generally agree with you and the parent on this. It definitely is self-fulfilling. Because some companies cut access to laid off employees immediately, it makes the others look negligent if they don't. I'm not trying to say I think this is correct or the best, just trying to speculate why some employers choose to take this action. Certainly all don't, but it does seem more common the larger a company gets.

I'd be curious if every laid off Google employee experiences this hard cut off, or if it's determined case by case.

25. constantcrying ◴[] No.43692362[source]
>If you were the CEO, would you take criminal/financial responsibility for that?

That is obviously decided by a court.

Ironically exactly this happens at VW, where getting fired is exceedingly difficult. Neither incompetence nor underperformance are enough.