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93 points bookofjoe | 69 comments | | HN request time: 2.267s | source | bottom
1. nadermx ◴[] No.43656145[source]
Speaking of WordPress, hows the entire WordPress debacle going with Matt Mullenweg?
replies(5): >>43656439 #>>43656600 #>>43656607 #>>43657123 #>>43657533 #
2. LordDragonfang ◴[] No.43656147[source]
Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't help but feel this is a solution in search of a problem.

I feel like "building a simple website" has been a solved issue with templates for decades now. The only thing you need to add is the text, and for a useful website, you're already going to have to be typing 90% of that into the prompt anyway - most of what an LLM is going to add will be more of a value-subtract than a value-add.

Sure, that still leaves the tweaking and customization, but I feel like that's the part most people enjoy the most? Humans love decorating.

Maybe I'm seeing this the wrong way, and I'm forgetting truly non-technical folks exist, and this is for the people who would otherwise be forcing their nephew to help them make a basic website, and that's the role the LLM is playing here, as a conversational interface. I think the marketing copy for this announcement is total bullshit, then (plastering "AI" all over the announcement is more for marketers than customers), but I can at least see that use case.

replies(7): >>43656265 #>>43656282 #>>43656322 #>>43656480 #>>43656496 #>>43657077 #>>43657752 #
3. frereubu ◴[] No.43656265[source]
I have no idea about the quality of the sites this produces, but I think your comment about non-technical folks existing is on the money. There are many people who really don't understand how to properly structure even a simple website, and being walked through a conversation with a series of pertinent questions will be a much more satisfying process.
replies(1): >>43656294 #
4. browningstreet ◴[] No.43656282[source]
Going from a basic template to all the little changes you need to make to build the basic shell you need for a new site is still a lot of work. Think of all the best practices cruft required for the pages typically linked to from the footer. A sporting good site is different than a directory blog is different than a single serving social media aggregation site.

I think it's plausible for AI to help with the tedious setup stuff and get you to the part where you start making it your own.

replies(1): >>43657172 #
5. bookofjoe ◴[] No.43656294{3}[source]
I am one of them. Without help from a capable and kind developer friend back in 2004 I never ever would have been able to create mine.
6. Nckpz ◴[] No.43656322[source]
I signed up out of curiosity and it looks like it's supposed to complement the manual editing UI so you can get things done without digging through menus. After the initial prompt and wizard, it's a chat box that sits in the corner of a typical WP admin page.

But in its current state, it seemed pretty broken to me. I just wanted it to add text to the top of the front page, and it kept saying "I couldn’t find the block you mentioned. Describe where it is on the page or select it and try again." no matter how many different ways I attempted to describe it.

7. hombre_fatal ◴[] No.43656480[source]
> Sure, that still leaves the tweaking and customization, but I feel like that's the part most people enjoy the most? Humans love decorating.

Even if that were true (which I heavily contest), people might like the idea of "I want the sidebar nav moved to the right side", not opening up template.css and template.html and figuring out which html/css they need to change.

The LLM is the thing that lets us do the fun part.

But let me disabuse you of the claim that technical people enjoy fiddling with html/css/design especially on their Wordpress website when they just want to make some changes, and somehow nontechnical people are the only ones who might have to circumvent all that fun-having by letting an LLM do it for them.

It's like saying that you don't see how LLMs could be useful to software developers because don't they enjoy writing code? Aside from the answer being no, most code isn't fun to write, you're forgetting the goal day to day is to get something done, not dick around with your Wordpress theme or software Jira tickets because it's fun.

replies(1): >>43656952 #
8. addicted ◴[] No.43656496[source]
This is a solved problem even in the sense that nearly all the Wordpress competitors already offer this.
9. ◴[] No.43656512[source]
10. paul7986 ◴[] No.43656591[source]
chatGPT (pro at least) creates amazing logos in 30 seconds, amazing look websites around the logo you settled on and then codes the front-end (html,css,js). That can all be done in 5 minutes or less.

As UX Designer and UI Developer who does all the above (also do UX Research which anything where you interface with humans i think is safe for awhile) it's slightly disheartening to see my skill-sets future worth.....

Where I work we were told we can't use GPT and that is fine, but in what a year to three or five Im sure their stance will change.

replies(2): >>43656656 #>>43657384 #
11. cabalos ◴[] No.43656600[source]
Development has dropped off a cliff over the last couple of months. The release cycle has moved from quarterly to yearly. He's basically taking his ball and going home. My guess is we'll see more internal initiatives like this AI builder instead of focusing on the core product.

This would be an okay strategy if his core product wasn't in such a state of disrepair. I've seen multiple issues on Github projects from Automattic developers saying "this would be easy to fix upstream but we're not allow to fix anything in WordPress right now." It's pathetic and actively harming his own business.

replies(2): >>43657007 #>>43658438 #
12. throwawaymatt ◴[] No.43656607[source]
They're still battling out in court, with a timeline that extends into 2027. Meanwhile: (very quick summary) Matt's pulled his developers off the project, and the release schedule has slowed. Some commercial vendors have increased their support, while others have pulled back. Meanwhile the ecosystem of devs and agencies basically shrugged it off. If we need to get rid of Matt we will (with big vendor support), no big deal.
replies(1): >>43657120 #
13. throwawaymatt ◴[] No.43656616[source]
yawn Pretty much every major WP builder has an AI component. I'm sure this one is as half-baked as all the others.
14. ToucanLoucan ◴[] No.43656656{3}[source]
From an audience perspective, if you use an AI generated site, I'm just assuming your product is shit. And not even because I'm opposed to the way AI is being used in many places (though I am) but for the same reason I don't buy products that advertise with shitty commercials that look like they were filmed in 2006 on a budget of $500. If you don't have a marketing budget for proper advertising, I'm assuming your product is some fly-by-night garbage that's likely to break on first use, if not an outright scam.

Is that fair? No probably not, but I don't know what to tell you. That's always been a rule of thumb for me: if the marketing presence of anything, services, products, tooling, what have you is cheaply/poorly made, I avoid it. I always have almost instinctively.

replies(2): >>43656719 #>>43657243 #
15. paul7986 ◴[] No.43656719{4}[source]
If you have GPT pro or know someone try it out .. create a logo with it then ask it to create a website around your chosen logo and then ask it to code the front-end. Im sure it can do the back-end code too. The logos and the web design it creates around the chosen logo look amazing .. extremely pro level. I'm not sure how you or anyone would be able to decipher if a website and or brand used chatGPT (pro). I'm betting no one would be able to tell just that it looks really good to great and professional!

Personally it's a wake up call for my skill-sets of over 15 years and that increasing my skillsets to 2025 modern day skill sets is best thing for me and any in my field!

replies(2): >>43656910 #>>43656984 #
16. rrr_oh_man ◴[] No.43656910{5}[source]
> The logos and the web design it creates around the chosen logo look amazing .. extremely pro level

Loss of words.

I'd be happy to have your standards in life.

replies(2): >>43657307 #>>43657326 #
17. nottorp ◴[] No.43656952{3}[source]
Jira tickets: depends on what metrics your management is using?

It may well be your life goal.

18. ToucanLoucan ◴[] No.43656984{5}[source]
I will Pepsi challenge this at your convenience. Give me some links if you like.
19. AlienRobot ◴[] No.43656987[source]
Wordpress: create your own website in minutes!

Wordpress new AI: create your own website in minutes!

replies(1): >>43657068 #
20. rchaud ◴[] No.43657044[source]
So they finally gave up on making "Full Site Editing" a thing, I take it. I maintain that trying to transition the product away from PHP into a React-ridden mess for the "Block Editor" in 2017 started us down this path of ruin.

Clearly they felt threatened by site builder plugins like Elementor Pro, Beaver Builder, Bricks and others that massively improved the WYSIWYG experience to the point where WP was relegated to the role of invisible scaffolding, a dumb pipe. Considering how badly they botched the redesign into the block editor era, and the madness about WpEngine, they are struggling to shake investor worries.

replies(2): >>43657671 #>>43661473 #
21. fragmede ◴[] No.43657068[source]
The bus, when you live on the route: Get to work in 30 minutes!

A car: Get to work in 30 minutes! (you still have to live and work in the right locations for that to be true, but you now also have deal with traffic)

22. thetwopct ◴[] No.43657073[source]
WordPress.com ≠ WordPress

Conflating the two is like mistaking GitHub for Git.

replies(1): >>43657242 #
23. rchaud ◴[] No.43657077[source]
another term for it is "investor driven development".
24. Mystery-Machine ◴[] No.43657120{3}[source]
I believe it is actually Pretty Big Deal™.

No big deal on splitting the community in half? Matt will not go and you will have half the people supporting him, half forking the project. Actually less than half on each side, when you count in the people that will completely leave the ecosystem...

replies(2): >>43657590 #>>43657597 #
25. AlienRobot ◴[] No.43657123[source]
For 99.99% of the people, it doesn't matter. Even if Wordpress stopped getting updates today, the code already works and it's open source, thanks in part to Matt for maintaining it for 20 years.

It was just the weekly Internet drama of the programming niche probably pumped by Youtubers and influencers in need for content to drive views and then by memes. Barely anything of substance was actually written about it.

After all, if Matt were such a negative factor in the project, it would be trivial to just take all the code and fork it and then for all the developers to just move to the new project. The fact that this didn't happen shows that there is non-trivial infrastructure being provided that is separate from the open source project. How do such smart people as programmers fail to understand this when they repeatedly conflate the open source project with the whole trademark/plugin hosting thing is beyond me. Does nobody question the whole thing before pointing fingers and picking their pitchforks?

I've seen a Youtuber who interviewed to Matt in one video and the Youtuber himself raised the point of hosting costs, and then in a next video they conflate the two concepts as if they had completely forgotten about everything they said and heard. It's surreal.

replies(1): >>43657197 #
26. rchaud ◴[] No.43657172{3}[source]
An AI website will look about as unique as a Facebook profile in 2004. Even the most non-technical people can tell a designer "make it look like this other website that I like". An AI won't be able to understand that, because it can't surf the web, locate the site and analyze what makes it good in the eyes of the customer.
replies(2): >>43657765 #>>43658197 #
27. partiallypro ◴[] No.43657228[source]
I deal with WordPress a lot, and at least for my set of clients they just don't even have time for this, even with AI. They just wants leads. AI currently is good I guess for a standard 3-5 page site just like some of the other standard builders, but clients with hundreds of pages and heavily reliant on getting leads through campaigns and SEO, I currently don't see any danger (or use) here. Great for SMBs that just need something up quick though.
28. rchaud ◴[] No.43657242[source]
They are much more similar to each other than Git as they share the same plugin ecosystem, core developers and the base layer CMS is identical. I imagine there are many more feature differences between Git and Github.
replies(1): >>43658236 #
29. Spivak ◴[] No.43657243{4}[source]
It's pretty easy easy to detect copy from the major AIs since they have a distinctive voice but a website coded by AI won't be nearly as easy.
30. Spivak ◴[] No.43657307{6}[source]
They do though— it's mostly because the pros aren't terribly good either. If your standards are "the top 0.001%" of graphic and web design then yeah, AI designs aren't on the level. But if your standards are simply as good or better than your typical professional design consulting firm then AI is knocking it out of the park.
replies(1): >>43657527 #
31. cyral ◴[] No.43657326{6}[source]
The new image generation released two weeks ago or so is a massive improvement, doesn't look like typical AI slop.

Everyone in these threads that dismisses AI needs to remember 5 years ago we didn't have somewhat human level intelligence that we could command to complete tasks in 30 seconds. There are a lot of cases where it fails right now, but imagine what it's going to look like in 5 or 10 more years. I think it's good to at least play around with it (prompt experimenting) to see what it can do, because your competitors, coworkers, etc are going to do that and get ahead whether you like it or not.

32. morsecodist ◴[] No.43657384{3}[source]
Can you say more? What are you doing specifically? I use AI for some things (mostly assisting with software development) and I have had a wildly different experience. I have used ChatGPT o1 and made some icons for internal apps so our employees can easily pick them from a list and the AI generated logos look just awful. I go with them because aesthetics don't matter for this use case they just need to be visually recognizable but it doesn't understand the concept of a logo it wouldn't even give me a white background let alone a transparent one.

I have had some success with some UI components but I usually need to massage them a bit and anything big or requiring a lot of changes it starts to trip over itself.

33. cdolan ◴[] No.43657519{4}[source]
"it's pathetic that no other company benefiting from WordPress has stepped up either"

^<-- hard to justify doing so when Wordpress' package ecosystem (the open source platform) is tethered to Wordpress.org (matt's personal website)

replies(1): >>43660024 #
34. rrr_oh_man ◴[] No.43657527{7}[source]
> good or better than your typical professional design consulting firm

Can you give me one example of a decent logo design made by ChatGPT that does exactly that — look good or better than your typical professional design consulting firm? I have literally tried today, but the results have been... very meh. :)

replies(1): >>43657927 #
35. pluc ◴[] No.43657533[source]
They just laid off 16% of workers

https://www.theverge.com/news/642187/automattic-wordpress-la...

36. rustc ◴[] No.43657571[source]
WordPress.com launches would be a better title. This builder is not available in WordPress (the open source software) but only WordPress.com (a hosting company owned by the creator of WordPress).

For a moment I thought they added AI integration to the open source Gutenberg plugin.

replies(4): >>43657638 #>>43657698 #>>43657830 #>>43657916 #
37. throwawaymatt ◴[] No.43657590{4}[source]
Splitting the community in half? Nah. If Matt needs to go, the community who is more interested in just making money (we're not "post economic" like Matt) will move aggressively to cut him out like cancer.

Sure he controls a scary amount of the ecosystem NOW, but we've seen big vendors express interest in hosting repositories, and major plugin vendors move quickly to secure their distribution and update models.

My tiny agency has already mitigated many risks and shifted our support towards developers who see a future PostMatt™

We'll be fine because WordPress belongs to us, not Matt.

replies(1): >>43657844 #
38. sleepybrett ◴[] No.43657597{4}[source]
IMO in my experience wordpress, as a project regardless of hosting, is coasting but in audience acquisition and new feature production.

They aren't acquiring new customers faster than they are losing existing customers. Squarespace and similar products are to eating it's proverbial lunch among a large portion of their audience (small to medium businesses who just want a website that is easy to update).

If some of the biggest hosters forked wordpress and started adding features that their customers are asking for, that wordpress the organization were ignoring or slow to produce, I think it would be a good thing. Providing wordpress the org with some motivation to compete.

39. throwawaymatt ◴[] No.43657638[source]
A very important distinction indeed. Wordpress.COM is not the same as the self-hosted version at WordPress.ORG

While they've made recent changes to .COM to bring it closer to .ORG mostly as a knee-jerk response to the Matt v WPE scrap, they are still very different experiences.

I rarely advise clients looking to DIY solution to go to WordPress.com

40. frereubu ◴[] No.43657671[source]
I run a WordPress agency and while I think the block editor was foisted on wordpress.org far too quickly, it's been a godsend in terms of allowing our clients much more control over their content. The prospect of going back to the TinyMCE WYSIWYG editor and templates makes me shudder.
replies(1): >>43659615 #
41. croemer ◴[] No.43657687[source]
Original title: "Just Say the Word—Try Our New AI Website Builder for Free"
replies(1): >>43657924 #
42. pluc ◴[] No.43657698[source]
It's funny that the whole lawsuit thing started because Mullenweg was claiming wpengine was confusing customers, when .com and .org is way more confusing.
replies(1): >>43657843 #
43. IanCal ◴[] No.43657752[source]
> I feel like "building a simple website" has been a solved issue with templates for decades now

I did this recently for a friend and 1000% no. It wasn't easy to find a good template or edit it, and things we tried (including various builders) were a massive pain in the arse.

I asked sonnet for a site and had it right in a few minutes. I asked for changes and they just worked. It wasn't a complex site but it was drastically easier, quicker and more fun than dealing with the nuts and bolts of it all.

> Sure, that still leaves the tweaking and customization, but I feel like that's the part most people enjoy the most? Humans love decorating.

Absolutely not.

Choosing customisation? Sure!

Making the customisations? Nope. I'm sure some do, but I and many others I think just want a thing.

Just asking for some changes and seeing them was great.

replies(1): >>43682016 #
44. IanCal ◴[] No.43657765{4}[source]
> Even the most non-technical people can tell a designer

The vast majority of people who want to make a site don't have a designer, and if they could get one the comparison is something that's near instant and costs pennies.

> An AI won't be able to understand that, because it can't surf the web, locate the site and analyze what makes it good in the eyes of the customer.

Perhaps ignoring the "what makes it good in the eyes of the customer", although I'd argue that point for many things, these systems often can surf the web, can locate sites, can take images as input and already know many major themes and major sites.

replies(1): >>43659857 #
45. webspinner ◴[] No.43657818[source]
Personally, I wouldn't use anything coming out of there right now!
46. webspinner ◴[] No.43657830[source]
Very true! Oh and I would hope not.
47. webspinner ◴[] No.43657843{3}[source]
I keep them straight usually. However, I don't have to. I just use Classic press.
48. Implicated ◴[] No.43657844{5}[source]
Copium. Wordpress is dead. Argue all you want. 5 years from now the trajectory of installs/users/commercial opportunity will show that the last year was more than enough to incentivize/motivate the current and potential users to reach for something else. I say this as someone who makes my primary income managing a very large WP/WC shop.

Sure, WP isn't going away overnight. But it's dead in the water at this point. Literally like a dead whale, still going to support an ecosystem for some period of time. Though, it's peak is behind us and the unwinding was accelerated immeasurably.

replies(2): >>43658000 #>>43658248 #
49. dang ◴[] No.43657916[source]
Since wordpress.com is displayed next to the title above, we can fix this by reverting the submission title to that of the article. I've done that now. (Well, I used the minimally baity substring.)

(Submitted title was "WordPress launches new free AI website builder")

50. dang ◴[] No.43657924[source]
Yes. I've replaced the submitted title now - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43657916 for more details.
51. Spivak ◴[] No.43657927{8}[source]
That's no fun. Instead let's play a game. One of these logos was made by a professional design firm and cost over $1,000,000. The other two I just generated. The gap between well-known national brands with millions of dollars to hire the best and what normal companies actually get is massive.

https://imgur.com/a/5En58cl

replies(1): >>43658121 #
52. webspinner ◴[] No.43658000{6}[source]
I love how you used the phrase "Wordpress is dead," and not the really trendy term everyone has been throwing around since January of last year.
53. rrr_oh_man ◴[] No.43658121{9}[source]
They are all pretty terrible, but I guess the rhombus-caret one is real.

The stripes one is rounded (looks shit when small), the complicated one is complicated for no reason.

Good logos work when black-and-white and when very small or very large.

And one more thing: The high cost of a rebrand isn’t paid for the logo or the redesign of stationary. It’s for the pain & process of aligning a committee of aloof decision-makers around a single choice.

54. fragmede ◴[] No.43658197{4}[source]
> An AI won't be able to understand that, because it can't surf the web

We've given the AI the ability to scrape websites, so I'm not sure that holds.

replies(1): >>43659887 #
55. thetwopct ◴[] No.43658236{3}[source]
Feel free to insert an analogy that pleases you. WordPress.com is a hosting company that has its own staff and contributes approx 40 hours per month to the WordPress open source project. WordPress core development is made up of contributors. The AI builder is not available for WordPress, it’s exclusively for the hosting company WordPress.com. WordPress.com on their basic plan restrict any plugin usage. There are no usage restrictions on the open source software. This is just a taste of the distinctions. The title of this post has now been updated, but regardless, WordPress.com is not WordPress.
56. fragmede ◴[] No.43658248{6}[source]
WordPress is so dead. Vibecoding a page using next.js and using something like sanity so they can make their own changes gets clients so much more for less than WordPress ever did.
57. molochai ◴[] No.43658438{3}[source]
Disrepair is too right. 5k issues and 1.7k open PRs on the Gutenberg GitHub repository.

I wish this all had happened before Full Site Editing was put into .org.

58. Apfel ◴[] No.43658815[source]
If anyone's interested in the prompts they're using here, they're viewable via devtools.

Full dump of what was showing on my end here: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/furnivall/aa95e8d9dc330f3...

59. AlienRobot ◴[] No.43659615{3}[source]
I don't get the criticism either. Every time I try to post on a platform I miss the ability of just dragging a paragraph around to reorder it.
60. rchaud ◴[] No.43659857{5}[source]
> although I'd argue that point for many things, these systems often can surf the web, can locate sites, can take images as input and already know many major themes and major sites.

But that's not what's being offered here, and my bet is it won't be. It's more lucrative for businesses to put out LLM freemium shovelware and claim it replaces people than do the enormous work of developing the custom models that actually can.

replies(1): >>43678494 #
61. rchaud ◴[] No.43659887{5}[source]
Scrapes are cached, it is too expensive and too long to do them on-demand based on a live query. Lots of sites change designs frequently and don't output semantic code in the html source either. And good luck getting the customer to prompt correctly for things like background images, gradients, carousels, animations and page transitions.
replies(1): >>43664495 #
62. cabalos ◴[] No.43660024{5}[source]
Also, good luck sending in a PR and getting it merged. Unless you are part of Matt’s inner circle, it isn’t happening. Even the most basic bug fix PRs are routinely ignored.
63. artpi ◴[] No.43661473[source]
This AI builder is actually doubling down on blocks - everything is block based and the canvas it works on is the full site editing. Without block editor, this wouldn’t be possible
64. codemartial ◴[] No.43662630[source]
Looks like landing pages with templates
65. omneity ◴[] No.43664495{6}[source]
We are actually solving this problem by building the Huggingface Hub[0] for browser automations -automatically tested and updated around the clock, and a homegrown distributed automation framework [1] that can leverage your own browser, your community’s or your team’s up to millions of orchestrated browsers.

It’s not just for AI, we created a custom package format[2] for automations that can run in CLI as a one-off, a REST API server, an MCP server with a single command..

0: https://herd.garden/trails

1: https://herd.garden

2: https://herd.garden/docs/trails-automations

66. redwoodsec ◴[] No.43669346[source]
Fwiw just tried the WordPress AI web builder it sucks
67. IanCal ◴[] No.43678494{6}[source]
Those are not custom models, image input is standard in flagship models and searching is offered by multiple providers.
68. jjani ◴[] No.43682016{3}[source]
What did Sonnet build it on, that you ended up using it?

One of the drawbacks of all frontier models (with Sonnet being the most extreme) for web dev is their strong preference for React in any kind of situation, even for Wordpress-blog equivalents where it makes no sense.