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666 points jcartw | 5 comments | | HN request time: 0.007s | source
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SwiftyBug ◴[] No.43620583[source]
I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years.

Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use.

Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be amazed by how fast money arrives in my Brazilian account when I make a withdrawal directly from my EUR wallet on Wise. I receive a push notification from my Brazilian bank before Wise finishes running the animation of confirmation of withdrawal. It's like magic.

And it's so widespread that nowadays I don't even question whether someone accepts Pix. When I get in a taxi, no matter how old the driver is, it's certain that they take (and prefer) Pix.

I've even had homeless people ask me for Pix instead of change on multiple occasions.

Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance.

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WinstonSmith84 ◴[] No.43624538[source]
> Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance.

Now, try to use Pix outside of Brazil - it's not even used in other Mercosur countries, what's the chance of having that adopted in other countries... And, that's problem #1.

How much do you trust your government with your money? A system like Pix don't stand a chance to get a worldwide adoption - maybe people are naive but governments won't unify to adopt a common system controlled by just a single entity / country.

What we may however end up with, are dozens of systems like Pix, one for each country, union, etc. Still cryptocurrencies as-is remain relevant (see point 1)

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toomuchtodo ◴[] No.43626927[source]
80 countries have instant/real time payment systems today [1], and the Bank for International Settlements is working on cross border interoperability [2].

Cryptocurrencies will likely never go away, and will remain in use for certain use cases from a cross border value transfer perspective, similar to gold; either the token moves or the ownership is updated. More interesting is offering digital wallets for a single or basket of currencies to anyone you can remotely identity proof in the world (similar to nsave [3]).

[1] https://www.volt.io/real-time-payments-world-map/

[2] https://www.bis.org/about/bisih/topics/fmis/nexus.htm

[3] https://www.nsave.com/ | https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/nsave

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danielmarkbruce ◴[] No.43627319[source]
On top of that, the BIS isnt even needed for global real time payments. A company like Wise (formerly transferwise) or any similar entity can just hold accounts in each country and if the local settlement is real time they can also do real time global settlement by just updating their db and sending the money real time in the receiving location.
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irjustin ◴[] No.43627572[source]
This is how they all work including western union. It's not a secret but it's not really talked about either.

No one pays FX fees on each transfer. Single large rebalancing transfers allows them to actually move money at optimal times and rates with bulk discounts. Then they can currency hedge and get larger spreads on the actual fx rate.

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dguest ◴[] No.43629740[source]
Maybe this is a dumb question, but how is the "single large rebalancing transfer" accomplished? I don't know of any machine where dollars go in one side, are destroyed, and euros are created on the other side.

My assumption was that it usually comes down to finding someone else with money in both currencies (i.e. a large bank or government) and exchanging one for the other. Of course that's unsatisfying: it's not just turtles all the way down.

Ultimately if I'm running out of, say, USD, and have a lot of CAD, I have to to buy a bunch of something for CAD and sell it in USD. If you wanted a "zero banking" currency transaction I guess the way to do it is to park on the Canadian side of the border, buy imports to the US, walk across to the US, and sell them.

Or maybe there's a magic money shredding / printing machine that I didn't know about. I guess an international treaty could actually authorize such a thing.

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danielmarkbruce ◴[] No.43634718[source]
Yes, it's just the banks. They have both. It's really not rocket science.

It should be satisfying in the following sense - the financial system is nowhere near as complicated as it seems. There is no magic. If you find yourself feeling like there is some magic somewhere, just ask another question because there is likely just a word or a layer of indirection that is making something quite simple seem mysterious.

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dguest ◴[] No.43642537{3}[source]
Well, at your suggestion I did ask ChatGPT, and it pointed to one sort of magic trick: currency swaps between central banks. That is (kind of) a machine where one type of money goes in one side and the other type comes out the other. There's even a cool tracker [1].

But yeah, it's mostly just market forces that keep things stabilized, it seems.

[1]: https://www.cfr.org/tracker/central-bank-currency-swaps-trac...

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1. danielmarkbruce ◴[] No.43646533{4}[source]
Even central bank swaps aren't magical. The ECB for example has an account for the US Fed, the same way they have an account for HSBC or whatever. The ECB can credit the account for the US Fed, the same way it can for anyone else.

The main trick that folks get hung up on (and, you might be too) is that most "money" is just an IOU from a bank. We've just created a sophisticated way to trade the IOUs and call it "money".

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2. dguest ◴[] No.43647652[source]
This is pretty much what I was asserting in my original post, my question was if there was some additional mechanism beyond simple market forces.

It's not inconceivable (nor magical in any way) to imagine treaties that would allow an actual conversion from one currency to another, where USD go in one side and Euro come out the other. Situations like this have existed in the past: currencies have been converted when, for example, the former currencies in the Eurozone were converted to Euros.

No such situations exist right now: entities just hold multiple currencies and exchange them for you.

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3. danielmarkbruce ◴[] No.43648584[source]
It's simpler than you are imagining. In practice, anyone can make USD go in one side and EUR come out the other. It's just the notion that something is "destroyed" which is wrong. If I owe you x USD, you can call me and we can agree I now owe you y EUR. If my name is "JP Morgan Chase Bank", it's really easy. And, the "m1 money supply" just changed. But, m1 is kind of nonsense because... it includes checking account deposits which are just IOUs from banks. So, no one just got richer (the bank still owes you money) and nothing is really going on.

Your mental model is falling down around the definition of "currency", "money" etc. It isn't what you imagine it is. We just have a system for trading bank receivables and call it "money".

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4. dguest ◴[] No.43662728{3}[source]
I appreciate the replies, and asking chatgpt is good advice.

It took some prompting to get it to say "It's really not rocket science." though.

https://chatgpt.com/share/67fa2c5f-d940-800a-bdad-b723e763e0...

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5. danielmarkbruce ◴[] No.43674091{4}[source]
The condescension is towards people in finance pretending there is a lot of complicated stuff going on, not towards people trying to parse it.