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182 points arizen | 17 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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gibbitz ◴[] No.43631583[source]
AI generated recruits are a fiction. That's not to say there aren't fake or bait and switch recruits but this idea makes no sense.

Some background. I'm a senior developer who has performed hundreds of interviews and seen dozens of questionable recruits long before AI. Typically the scam is that an offshore consultancy wants to place some roles to collect wages. Many of these agencies are from collectivist cultures, so in the mind of the agency, they all work in our project. This may not be true, but the agency sees the position as theirs, not the recruit's. So they typically don't the issue with putting recruit A in front of the interviewer and then slotting recruit B in after the position is secured. I've seen this done with A talking while B moves their lips on camera. Now with chatGPT (and earlier to some degree with just Google Search) we just see applicants eyes focused on something they're reading when we ask questions. All of this is just as easy as an AI generated applicant (if not easier) and quite likely to get the recruit hired.

A lot of this narrative is pointing the finger at China, North Korea and Russia/Ukraine. The best candidates I've fielded have been Ukrainian, Russian and Chinese. These are countries well known for their tech sectors. North Korea has executed the largest crypto heists in history. These are not groups who need to fake it.

So who does this narrative serve? It serves the RTO CEOs. This makes CEOs scared to hire remote workers and lets the ones who demand it have a reason.

If anything the panic around AI should reinforce the need to think critically about these things.

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1. matt_s ◴[] No.43631952[source]
My experience was similar but with on/offshore companies in India. We just started requiring camera on (it was pre-pandemic) and it was obvious if candidates knew their stuff or were just prepped and/or reading responses. Most of those contracts were setup where the company was providing a "service" with fake cost recovery wordings if the service was not provided. Money only went one way, the contracts had wording about penalty payback but the reality after talking with people in finance was the financial process/systems weren't setup for that, lol.

Ways to combat bait and switch is to alter interview questions, add new questions to every interview, ask deeper level questions, and observe the candidate in how they respond. It should be a more conversational tone the entire time, random discussion paths pursued, especially if the candidate's interests perk up about something. Every candidate has a different background so getting them to talk about that and problems they solved and diving into those in detail should be a good gauge of ability.

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2. pc86 ◴[] No.43632029[source]
A friend of mine - against my loud objections - hired some Pakistani offshore group to build an app for him around 2015 or so. $15k "estimate" but it was all time & materials not flat rate. They had an "office" with a "CEO" in NYC but no staff, just a PO Box. The whole thing was super fishy and I said as much but he didn't care because they were cheap.

Fast forward nearly 18 months into the 6 month contract, and about $40k later, there is no working app and the "CEO" says "well I would love to give you some of your money back but the contract has expired so I am no longer able to do that, we could sign another one for $20k to finish if you'd like."

I've worked with probably a dozen offshoring companies in my life in one way or another and every single one of them has been deceitful to the point of being fraudulent, and puts out some of the worst code you have ever seen.

I tell everyone considering it that if you can afford it, you're getting scammed in one way or another. You're better off going with a US-based firm that guarantees you'll get American workers who are physically in the US working on your product.

I'd rather hire Deloitte or Accenture for 10x the price - I know they offshore a ton but you'll at least have avenues to get your money back if they don't deliver.

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3. erikerikson ◴[] No.43632210[source]
<cough>Thoughtworks</cough>
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4. scarface_74 ◴[] No.43632402[source]
Almost none of the types of companies you are referring to use US staff for the grunt work. They may have sales, management and leads in the US. But even the major firms like Deloitte and Accenture use off shore labor for the most part.

You’re not going to want to pay the rates that they will charge for their best of the best hands on developers based in the US and if they did start staffing lots of devs in the US, they wouldn’t be price competitive.

I have worked at AWS Professional Service (full time direct hire) and now work at a third party consulting company as a “staff consultant”. Only a few large and/or well funded companies (and government agencies pre-DOGE) were/are willing to pay the rates that the companies charge to have me on a project.

Even then, they lean on me far more for leadership and strategy than hands on keyboard

5. spitfire ◴[] No.43632461{3}[source]
Expand on the a little please. I’d like to know the background.
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6. ◴[] No.43632657{4}[source]
7. erikerikson ◴[] No.43633438{4}[source]
[Apologies: I mistook the context with my original reply and just realized that]

GP suggested Deloitte and Accenture. They do offer technical consulting services but really as an afterthought specializing in accounting and business consulting. Thoughtworks (home to Martin Fowler, Kent Beck, Zhamak Dehghani and so many more) is far more savvy, had been a far better presence in the industry, and has more highly skilled people. I am a bit partial but with reason.

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8. onlyrealcuzzo ◴[] No.43633770[source]
> It should be a more conversational tone the entire time, random discussion paths pursued, especially if the candidate's interests perk up about something.

Will we get AI to determine if the candidates are using AI?

9. spitfire ◴[] No.43634143{5}[source]
Oh okay. I thought you had something negative to say about thoughtworks. I’ve known a few people who worked there and thought there was some messy business i didn’t know about.
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10. erikerikson ◴[] No.43634302{6}[source]
TL;DR: I recommend it as a workplace and service provider.

In balance, I have absolutely nothing negative to say; I loved working there and felt great about the work we did for others. Consultancies and their clients can be messy but it was a wonderful place to overwork (relative to my personal capacities). The technologists were top notch, people cared to do good work and deliver real business value, and the ambient emotional intelligence was soothingly glorious.

11. Sohcahtoa82 ◴[] No.43634418[source]
Reminds me of one of my favorite stories on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/2xjrdy/whe...

tl;dr - Company CTO hires off-shore dev consultant to write an app, the code is horrendously bad, doesn't even fulfill requirements, and has to be thrown out because it's such a bug-ridden mess. Company scrambles to produce the app internally and succeeds. Later, they need to launch a new product, CTO decides to rehire the same off-shore consultant.

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12. SoftTalker ◴[] No.43634721[source]
Right because Deloitte and Accenture engagements have no history of running wildly over projections on time or budget. They don't do $15k app projects anyway.
13. torginus ◴[] No.43635684[source]
Well, speaking anecdotally, I personally know some rather excellent East Euro mobile devs who could probably build anything (within reason) for $60k-$80k a year, and do it rather well. (Not advertising anyone's services, just mentioning the rates good devs work for around here).
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14. itronitron ◴[] No.43637181{5}[source]
so savvy that they coined the term "Dependency Injection" as some magical software architectural pattern...
15. bluGill ◴[] No.43637663{3}[source]
They exist for sure. They are not working for the out sources because they have found someone willing to pay them what they are really worth - this might be a lot less than they could make in the US, but a lot more than they can make from the cheap outsourceers. You can find great offshore labor, but you need to hire someone who knows the country to manage those people as not everyone is great. You also need to be willing to pay the great people.
16. bsder ◴[] No.43638256{5}[source]
Your semi-regular reminder that Fowler and Beck were part of the brain trust involved with the gigantic disaster that was the "Chrysler Comprehensive Compensation System".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Comprehensive_Compens...

17. pc86 ◴[] No.43643232{3}[source]
Honestly at the CTO level even making that first hire is borderline fireable depending on how bad it was.

Second time is very quickly approaching "what salary/bonus/options/401k match can we claw back because this is professional negligence" territory.