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361 points Tomte | 29 comments | | HN request time: 0.41s | source | bottom
1. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43609745[source]
Raw decoding is not as simple as you might think.

It’s the best place to add “signature steps.” Things like noise reduction, chromatic aberration correction, and one-step HDR processing.

I used to work for a camera manufacturer, and our Raw decoder was an extremely intense pipeline step. It was treated as one of the biggest secrets in the company.

Third-party deinterlacers could not exactly match ours, although they could get very good results.

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2. koiueo ◴[] No.43609759[source]
Can you share what company have you worked for?
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3. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43609772[source]
Not publicly. It’s not difficult to figure out, but I make it a point, not to post stuff that would show up in their search algorithms.

But it was a pretty major one, and I ran their host image pipeline software team.

[Edited to Add] It was one of the “no comment” companies. They won’t discuss their Raw format in detail, and neither will I, even though it has been many years, since I left that company, and it’s likely that my knowledge is dated.

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4. dkdbejwi383 ◴[] No.43609884[source]
It might be the non-mosaic one.
5. Zak ◴[] No.43610379{3}[source]
> They won’t discuss their Raw format in detail

Can you share the reason for that?

It seems to me that long ago, camera companies thought they would charge money for their proprietary conversion software. It has been obvious for nearly as long that nobody is going to pay for it, and delayed compatibility with the software people actually want to use will only slow down sales of new models.

With that reasoning long-dead, is there some other competitive advantage they perceive to keeping details of the raw format secret?

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6. klysm ◴[] No.43610604[source]
What does that have to do with storing the raw sensor values?
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7. _ph_ ◴[] No.43611686[source]
Well, it is obvious that between a RAW file and the final image there are a lot of complex processing steps. But that is independent of the file format used. DNG isn't so much different, just documented. And while the manufacturers converter might give the best results, the photographers rather use the image processing programs from Adobe or their competition which use their own RAW converters anyway.
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8. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43612116{4}[source]
The main reason is that image Quality is the main coefficient of their corporation. They felt that it was a competitive advantage, and sort of a "secret ingredient," like you will hear from master chefs.

They feel that their images have a "corporate fingerprint," and are always concerned that images not get out, that don't demonstrate that.

This often resulted in difficulty, getting sample images.

Also, for things like chromatic aberration correction, you could add metadata that describes the lens that took the picture, and use that to inform the correction algorithm.

In many cases, a lens that displays chromatic aberration is an embarrassment. It's one of those "dirty little secrets," that camera manufacturers don't want to admit exists.

As they started producing cheaper lenses, with less glass, they would get more ChrAb, and they didn't want people to see that.

Raw files are where you can compensate for that, with the least impact on image quality. You can have ChrAb correction, applied after the demosaic, but it will be "lossy." If you can apply it before, you can minimize data loss. Same with noise reduction.

Many folks here, would absolutely freak, if they saw the complexity of our deBayer filter. It was a pretty massive bit of code.

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9. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43612127[source]
See my comment below.
10. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43612155[source]
Yeah, they could do it with DNG (I suppose), but they don't really have any reason to do so (in their minds). Personally, I like open stuff, but they did not share my mindset, and I respected their posture.
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11. Zak ◴[] No.43612418{5}[source]
Thanks for the explanation. I have to question how reality-based that thinking is. I do not, of course expect you to defend it.

It seems to me that nearly all photographers who are particularly concerned with image quality shoot raw and use third-party processing software. Perhaps that's a decision not rooted firmly in reality, but it would take a massive effort focused on software UX to get very many to switch to first-party software.

> Raw files are where you can compensate for that, with the least impact on image quality. You can have ChrAb correction, applied after the demosaic, but it will be "lossy."

Are you saying that they're baking chromatic aberration corrections into the raw files themselves so that third-party software can't detect it? I know the trend lately is to tolerate more software-correctable flaws in lenses today because it allows for gains elsewhere (often sharpness or size, not just price), but I'm used to seeing those corrections as a step in the raw development pipeline which software can toggle.

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12. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43612559{6}[source]
I think we're getting into that stuff that I don't want to elaborate on. They would probably get cranky I have said what I've said, but that's pretty common knowledge.

If the third-party stuff has access to the raw Bayer format, they can do pretty much anything. They may not have the actual manufacturer data on lenses, but they may be able to do a lot.

Also, 50MP, lossless-compressed (or uncompressed) 16-bit-per-channel images tend to be big. It takes a lot to process them; especially if you have time constraints (like video). Remember that these devices have their own, low-power processors, and they need to handle the data. If we wrote host software to provide matching processing, we needed to mimic what the device firmware did. You don't necessarily have that issue, with third-party pipelines, as no one expects them to match.

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13. dllu ◴[] No.43615373[source]
Anecdotally, using Darktable, I could never get as good of a demosaicing result as using the straight-out-of-camera JPEGs from my Fujifilm GFX 100S. In challenging scenarios such as fine diagonal lines, Darktable's algorithms such as LMMSE would add a lot of false colour to the image.

However, modern deep learning-based joint demosaicing and denoising algorithms handily outperform Darktable's classical algorithms.

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14. sandofsky ◴[] No.43615559[source]
Raw decoding is an algorithm, not a container format. The issue is every is coming up with their own proprietary containers for identical data that just represents sensor readings.
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15. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43615972[source]
It's more than just a file format.

The issue is that companies want control of the demosaicing stage, and the container format is part of that strategy.

If a file format is a corporate proprietary one, then there's no expectation that they should provide services that do not directly benefit them, or that expose internal corporate trade secrets, in service to an open format.

If they have their own format, then they don't have to lose any sleep over stuff that doesn't interest or benefit them.

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16. koiueo ◴[] No.43616006{3}[source]
You've made it pretty clear, thank you.

That was my suspicion initially. In fact, when I read about mass DNG adoption, my first thought was "but how would it work for this company?" (admittedly I don't know much about DNG, but intuitively I had my doubts).

And then I saw your comment.

17. sandofsky ◴[] No.43616060{3}[source]
By definition, a RAW container contains sensor data, and nothing more. Are you saying that Adobe is using their proprietary algorithms to render proprietary RAW formats in Lightroom?
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18. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43616081{4}[source]
I don’t know about Adobe. I never worked for them.
19. porphyra ◴[] No.43616115{5}[source]
I am very skeptical that chromatic aberration can be applied before a demosaic and then the result can be stored in a Bayer array again. There seems to be no advantage in storing the result of chromatic aberration correction in a raw Bayer array, which has less information, than a full array with the three RGB values per pixel. Perhaps I am not understanding it correctly?
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20. Zak ◴[] No.43616230{7}[source]
Thanks for sharing what you could. I wasn't really thinking about video; the storage requirements to work with raw video are indeed big.
21. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43617522{6}[source]
It's not stored. It's applied to the raw Bayer data, every time, before demosaicing. Same with noise reduction.

What you can store, is metadata that informs these "first step" filters, like lens data, and maybe other sensor readings.

One of the advantages to proprietary data storage, is that you can have company-proprietary filters, that produce a "signature" effect. Third-party filters may get close to it (and may actually get "better" results), but it won't be the same, and won't look like what you see in the viewfinder.

22. hexo ◴[] No.43619676[source]
Last thing I want my pictures touching is some deep learning based thingy.
23. redeeman ◴[] No.43619912{3}[source]
pretty sure they would lose a lot of sleep if no third party application could open their raw
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24. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43620158{4}[source]
You'd be surprised.

They lost sleep over having images from their devices looking bad.

They wanted ultimate control of their images, and they didn't trust third-party pipelines to render them well.

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25. _ph_ ◴[] No.43622834{3}[source]
If a camera company sells me a camera, I consider it a definite disadvantage, if I cannot open the Raw files until the software companies have updated their products. This is also a great way of forcing customers into the subscription models like Adobe offers. So as a customer, I do criticize that they don't support more open formats.
26. starky ◴[] No.43623272[source]
But this is talking about proprietary RAW image formats, which should be the data from the sensor with minimal processing. The entire point of RAW images is that you are skipping the majority of the ISP and applying those blocks in the processing software. Even the de-mosiacing step is done in the processor. There is really no reason why this is proprietary. This doesn't stop the camera company from applying their proprietary processing on the JPEG output that utilizes the full ISP.
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27. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43623431[source]
Not really.

If you claim to support a particular format, then you're responsible for supporting that format, and there's no reason why a company would do that, if they have no intentions of supporting anyone other than themselves from accessing the data.

"Not supporting" != "Not allowing"

They may not be thrilled by third parties reverse-engineering and accessing their proprietary formats, and can't necessarily stop them, but they are under no obligation to help them to do it, and they are free to change the rules, at their own whim.

Think of Apple, regularly borking cracking systems. It may not be deliberate. They may have just introduced some new data that cracked the crack, but there's no duty to support the crackers.

28. redeeman ◴[] No.43625521{5}[source]
so you think they'd be all happy if nobody could open the raw files in adobe software?
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29. ChrisMarshallNY ◴[] No.43626721{6}[source]
Yup.

Not kidding. These folks are serious control freaks. They are the most anal people I've ever met, when it comes to image Quality.