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157 points Helmut10001 | 30 comments | | HN request time: 1.313s | source | bottom
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kacesensitive ◴[] No.43593217[source]
Earth gets over 170,000 terawatts of solar energy every day—10,000 times more than humanity uses. Losing just a fraction of our cloud cover means a massive, invisible throttle is coming off the climate system. If this trend holds, we’re not just warming—we’re stepping on the gas.
replies(3): >>43593273 #>>43593530 #>>43593659 #
1. dbacar ◴[] No.43593273[source]
terawatt is not an energy unit.
replies(5): >>43593349 #>>43593474 #>>43593622 #>>43593698 #>>43593850 #
2. spacedcowboy ◴[] No.43593349[source]
R̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶t̶e̶x̶t̶…̶

- A̶ ̶w̶a̶t̶t̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶d̶e̶f̶i̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶1̶ ̶j̶o̶u̶l̶e̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶e̶c̶o̶n̶d̶

̶ A̶ ̶w̶a̶t̶t̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶1̶ ̶s̶e̶c̶o̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶f̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶e̶q̶u̶a̶l̶s̶ ̶1̶ ̶j̶o̶u̶l̶e̶,̶ ̶a̶ ̶m̶e̶a̶s̶u̶r̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶e̶n̶e̶r̶g̶y̶

- A̶ ̶T̶e̶r̶a̶w̶a̶t̶t̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶a̶ ̶d̶a̶y̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶f̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶a̶ ̶m̶e̶a̶s̶u̶r̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶e̶n̶e̶r̶g̶y̶.̶

[edit: The earth receives 14.9 ZettaWatts of solar power per day, and 173 Petawatts per second, I was reading it as 173 PW over a day, in which case the above works fine. Mea culpa]

See: https://gosolarquotes.com.au/amount-of-solar-energy-hitting-...

replies(4): >>43593446 #>>43593456 #>>43593557 #>>43593746 #
3. treyd ◴[] No.43593446[source]
Yeah the units cancel, that's the issue. The phrasing implies that after half a day it's received 85k terawatts which doesn't make any sense.

Power (kg m^2 / s^3) * Time (s) = Energy (kg m^2 / s^2)

Now from context it's obvious that what was meant is that Earth continually receives 170 terawatts from the sun. The phrasing is technically inaccurate, but it's a turn of phrase that works fine.

replies(3): >>43593623 #>>43593635 #>>43593845 #
4. ◴[] No.43593456[source]
5. simpaticoder ◴[] No.43593474[source]
I like the use of watts/day instead of joules here because we have some intuition about watts. Earth must dissapate 170 exawatts per day of sunshine, in addition to letting off some amount of heat from the molten core.

(Life has evolved on the edge of a knife, at the narrow balance point between enormous energies that cancel out just so. I often think that at the beach, looking out across the ocean, marveling that the water is almost never sloshing around at any scale proportional to itself. It's up to us to educate those who don't understand positive feedback loops and the existential risk they present to any system in equilibrium.)

replies(5): >>43593538 #>>43593575 #>>43593680 #>>43593706 #>>43594501 #
6. ◴[] No.43593538[source]
7. CorrectHorseBat ◴[] No.43593557[source]
No they don't, you need to divide, not multiply just like you would with every other unit. 1l of rain every day is 1l/day, not 1l * day . Which means Watt per day is J/s^2
replies(3): >>43593598 #>>43593798 #>>43593805 #
8. hollerith ◴[] No.43593575[source]
>watts/day instead of joules

You mean watt days (watts * days).

replies(1): >>43594338 #
9. AlienRobot ◴[] No.43593598{3}[source]
I think a clearer example would be saying a car runs 20KM/H every day.
replies(1): >>43593709 #
10. andyjohnson0 ◴[] No.43593622[source]
Nevertheless the meaning is clear, and it serves to illustrate their point about reduction in cloud cover.
replies(1): >>43594515 #
11. ◴[] No.43593623{3}[source]
12. jessekv ◴[] No.43593635{3}[source]
so... close... petawatts ;)
13. ◴[] No.43593680[source]
14. roter ◴[] No.43593698[source]
Units provided were power not energy. The number provided is just the product of the solar constant and the cross-sectional area of Earth [0], roughly.

[0] https://bionumbers.hms.harvard.edu/bionumber.aspx?id=100943

15. lucianbr ◴[] No.43593706[source]
Your comment still reads like watts are energy, which they are not. Maybe you mean "watt-days instead of joules". Watts/day is nonsense, and joules/day are watts. (With some coefficient)
replies(1): >>43594727 #
16. gpderetta ◴[] No.43593709{4}[source]
On the other hand batteries energy capacity is commonly rated in Watt hour.

Watt*day is a perfectly cromulent energy statement although a bit misleading.

replies(1): >>43594139 #
17. ◴[] No.43593746[source]
18. spacedcowboy ◴[] No.43593798{3}[source]
That’s changing “every day” into “per day”. Judging by the downvotes that is how people are reading it, but “specified time” of a rate-quantity is an integration, to me. Which makes it a multiply op over the time specified.

If you pour out one bucket of sand every hour, and you do that for 10 hours, I expect the quantity of sand to be measured in buckets.

19. jijijijij ◴[] No.43593805{3}[source]
If you want to be nitpicky about semantics, I think the only valid interpretation then is to take OP by their words and assume they meant energy transfer for 24h, since they did not write "per day" as you suggest:

"Earth gets over 170,000 terawatts of solar energy every day"

= 170 PW × 1d

= 170 × P(J/s) × 86.4 × ks

= 170 × 10¹⁵ × (J/s) × 86.4 × 10³ × s

= 14.6 × 10²¹ × J

= 14.6 ZJ

However, I also think "of solar energy" could be read as specifying the type of energy for the "rate of energy transfer", which is already implied in 'watt'. And since it's related to energy usage (rate), there really is no need to leave the "rate of energy transfer" interpretation at all and get hung up on "energy vs. power":

"Earth receives 170 petawatts as solar energy - 10,000 times the energy humanity uses, at any moment.

Edit: And let's be real, we all only feel very smart here because we just watched the latest Technology Connections video https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/OOK5xkFijPc :D

20. spacedcowboy ◴[] No.43593845{3}[source]
So, not knowing any better, I read it as meaning 170k TW/day, so 85k TW/12 hours made sense to me, but you’re right… [1]. The earth receives 14.9 ZettaWatts of solar radiation per day…

[1]: https://gosolarquotes.com.au/amount-of-solar-energy-hitting-...

21. jessekv ◴[] No.43593850[source]
If you read it like "Earth gets over 170,000 terawatts of solar energy- all day, every day" then it works.
22. Ekaros ◴[] No.43594139{5}[source]
Watt*day is weird, but at least unit of energy. Watts a day is not.

Really common mistake in general to use kWh as a kW. Watthour is unit of energy. As watt is energy by time period. So you get back to units of energy.

Technically watt/day could be change in power consumption.

23. ChainOfFools ◴[] No.43594338{3}[source]
I don't see what's wrong about OP's use of the term in the context they are using it. In the context given the number of days in the denominated unit is 1. Which means as dividend or factor it is going to give you the same result. Again in this context watts per day is much more intuitive for most people too reason about.
replies(1): >>43594584 #
24. two_handfuls ◴[] No.43594501[source]
Watts/day are not comparable to joules. One is a measure of change in power and the other is energy.

It's the opposite: joules/day and watts are both units of power.

25. two_handfuls ◴[] No.43594515[source]
The meaning is not clear at all. As a reader, what I got is "the writer made such a basic mistake that what they claim cannot be trusted."
26. hollerith ◴[] No.43594584{4}[source]
I don't mean to be rude, but anyone who thinks watts/day and watt days are ever interchangeable will have severe problems reasoning about anything electricity-related or energy-related.

It is akin to thinking that "2 apples" and "an apple divided by 2" are interchangeable because both expressions involve the concept of an apple and the number 2.

replies(2): >>43594777 #>>43598780 #
27. simpaticoder ◴[] No.43594727{3}[source]
You're right and I'm sorry I didn't catch it before the edit timer expired. I made another mistake - 100k terawatts is .1 exawatts.
28. mextrezza ◴[] No.43594777{5}[source]
> over 170,000 terawatts of solar energy every day

i'd definitely rewrite it myself, but it's also a correct way to specify that there are no days of the week, year, or whatever (solar cycle) in which the terawattage is below 170k. Not very intermittent, is it!

replies(1): >>43594804 #
29. hollerith ◴[] No.43594804{6}[source]
I deleted the part of my comment you quoted. Sorry about that.

I agree with you, FWIW.

30. ChainOfFools ◴[] No.43598780{5}[source]
I think we may be talking at cross purposes. I specifically used the number one because it behaves like a unit here. unlike 2 or any other number, 1 is also the standard 1D unit vector, so 1apples is indeed the same quantity as apples/1, but because it is a unit we usually imply its presence rather than express it explicitly as above.

watts/unit thus seems fine to me, whatever the unit may be, even if it itself is derived from time. watts per day would just work out to joules/second/1/24*60*60, making 1 watts per day a derived unit that expresses joules/84600 seconds, or an instantaneous rate of one 84600th of a joule.